Original Sources Koran Stole its Stories From

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8 Responses to Original Sources Koran Stole its Stories From

  1. θ says:

    Parable of the tax collector and Lasarus comes from the less known Palestine Gemara.
    Palestine Gemara Babylonicum, Sanhedrin tractate, 6th chapter.
    We have already told the beginning of the story, how the scholar’s funeral was unattended while the tax collector was buried with great pomp. Now here is the end of it. One of the poor scholar’s colleagues was allowed to see in a dream the fate of the two men in the next world: A few days later the scholar saw his colleague in gardens of paradisal beauty, watered by flowing streams. He also saw Bar Ma’jan the tax collector standing on the bank of a stream and trying to reach
    the water, but unable to do so.

    Some Borrowed Parables of Gospels.
    //www.big-lies.org/rationalism/joseph-mccabe-jesus-parables.html
    In many cases the parables in the Talmud are more intelligent than and ethically superior to the Gospel version. Thus, in the parable of the Wedding Feast, which in Matthew (xxii, 2) makes men slay royal messengers for inviting them to a banquet, and punish for not being in festive clothes men who had been dragged in from the street, is reasonable in the Talmud (Gabbath, 153a, or II, 361, in Rodkinson’s translation). The King gives ample notice to his guests, but some put off their preparations and arrive in unseemly garments; and they are not “bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness,” as in Matthew, but simply not allowed to dine.

    The parable of the Talents (Matthew, xxv, 14-28), in which usury is heavily praised, has a saner counterpart in Sabbath (1525).

    The parable of the Two Debtors (Matthew, xviii, 23-34), in which a man owes his King 10,000 talents, is quite humane in the Talmud (Rosh ha Shana, 17b). Experts tell us, by the way, that 10,000 talents is equal to about £2,000,000, and, as if to illustrate the soporific effect of Bible-reading, Spence and Exell’s Pulpit Commentary recommends the preacher to comment on this text: “The reckoning had only just begun: there may have been other and even greater debts to come” (p. 223).

    The parable of the Hired Workers, in which Jesus is made to approve of giving the same wage for one hour as for ten, is quite sound in the Talmud (Barachot, 5c).

  2. madmanna says:

    “In many cases the parables in the Talmud are more intelligent than and ethically superior to the Gospel version.”

    That is just his opinion. The parable in the talmud must be teaching something else. That is irrelevant to the question.

    “The parable of the Talents (Matthew, xxv, 14-28), in which usury is heavily praised, has a saner counterpart in Sabbath (1525).”

    It is not ursury. It is a fair return on the investment. Why is it ursury? The lord came back after a long time. So it was reasonable to double his investment over that long period of time. The talents were given according to the ability of the servants.

    “The parable of the Two Debtors (Matthew, xviii, 23-34), in which a man owes his King 10,000 talents, is quite humane in the Talmud (Rosh ha Shana, 17b).”

    Those who don’t forgive as they are forgiven will be dealt with severely. What is the correct “humane” response according to this writer, who is just giving his biased opinions.

  3. madmanna says:

    You still have to explain why the Koran depends so heavily on borrowed rejected writings and fables.

  4. θ says:

    “madmanna says: You still have to explain why the Koran depends so heavily on borrowed rejected writings and fables.”

    First. Faith-literary Adaptation.
    The content of the cultural stories that Qur’an chooses showed the higher creativity of adaptation.
    Story of Alexander for example is a good test of Faith: If Alexander were a pagan king, then Daniel (under dictation of Gabriel) who prophesied his coming to Jerusalem must have been a false Prophet, and the Tanach of Jehovah must have been false. As consequence, Jehovah would have been a false god. That’s untrue.
    Historians and Non-believer doubters don’t get the hidden wisdom behind it as they just judge him by appearance.

    That’s why therefore the Jewish scholars of Madinah come forth to test the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad: if he were not a Prophet, he must have mistakenly asserted that Alexander is a pagan the worshiper of Grecian gods.

    Daniel’s prophesy of the coming of Grecian king has become the adaptation of “Alexander Romance” for Judeo-Christian literary wherewith he is depicted as a new convert who worships Jehovah the same God of Abraham.

    Secondly. Historical consideration.
    The controversial use of some rejected Jewish writing (not fables) is quite consistent in a literary sense with the unpopular Qur’anic use of many canonical Jewish stories in the early Islam wherewith Jews of those days were depicted by the heathen Arabs as the outcast losers, disgraced wanderers without kingdom, expelled lowly tribes, as the accursed strangers.

    Islam also emerges firstly as an unpopular religion.

    In Qur’an especially at Q.28, v.57 it is recorded how the heathen Arabs related a context of Qur’anic story of Moses to a bad luck or bad omen for the fate and future of their people, they hate to embrace Monotheism because they don’t want to similarly get expelled by the invasive heathens just as happened on Jews, apparently they thought the Monotheism is just for the weak lower castes with a weak god.

    We should imagine the 7th century Jews are less or more like today’s poor refugees and illegal immigrants whose country is taken over by many other countries.

    Thirdly. Internal aim.
    The preliminary purpose of Qur’an is to attract so many fringe sects of Christians at that time, namely Arians, Semi-Arians, Subordinationists, Gnostics, Ebionites, Monophysites, and other Anti-Nicene Christians.
    Islam also emerges firstly as an anti-establishment religion, and Qur’an wants Moslems to unify so many differing sects under one faith.

    Fourth. Wisdom of Survivalism.
    Islam agrees with the open-minded pragmatism and realism of Rabbi Gamaliel in the book of Acts, that if one unpopular fringe sect can somehow manage to survive a trial of time it stays because God wants it. There must be a glimpse of truth in it, and nobody can do something against it, not by violence, not by imperial decree, let alone by a trivial canonisation.
    Acts 5
    38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

  5. madmanna says:

    Alexander was a Muslim?

    “Daniel’s prophesy of the coming of Grecian king has become the adaptation of “Alexander Romance” for Judeo-Christian literary wherewith he is depicted as a new convert who worships Jehovah the same God of Abraham.”

    Where is he depicted as a worshipper of Jehovah?

  6. θ says:

    Jewish Historian Josephus wrote his historical findings in Antiquities, Book xi, Chapter 8, that the king Alexander adored God who hath honored Jaddua with temple priesthood, and he went up into the Jerusalem temple, he offered sacrifice to God according to the high priest’s direction, he implemented the Tanach laws for Jews, and didn’t collect tribute on the seventh year.

    In Talmud, tractate Yoma 69a and Sanhedrin 91a described the king Alexander bowed to Tetragrammaton engraving of Simeon the priest and preferred Jews (Isaac) over Arabians (Ishmael) on a case of ownership of Abraham’s purchased houses (but not all Canaan land), by approving arguments of the Torah.
    //juchre.org/talmud/yoma/yoma4.htm
    Talmud – Mas. Yoma 69a
    It is the day on which the Cutheans demanded the House of our God from Alexander the Macedonian so as to destroy it, and he had given them the permission, whereupon some people came and informed Simeon the Just.8 What did the latter do? He put on his priestly garments, robed himself in priestly garments, some of the noblemen of Israel went with him carrying fiery torches in their hands, they walked all the night, some walking on one side and others on the other side, until the dawn rose. When the dawn rose he [Alexander] said to them: Who are these [the Samaritans]? They answered: The Jews who rebelled against you. As he reached Antipatris,9 the sun having shone forth, they met. When he saw Simeon the Just, he descended from his carriage and bowed down before him. They said to him: A great king like yourself should bow down before this Jew? He answered: His image it is which wins for me in all my battles. He said to them: What have you come for? They said: Is it possible that star-worshippers should mislead you to destroy the House wherein prayers are said for you and your kingdom that it be never destroyed! He said to them: Who are these? They said to him: These are Cutheans who stand before you. He said: They are delivered into your hand. At once they perforated their heels, tied them to the tails of their horses and dragged them over thorns and thistles, until they came to Mount Gerizim, which they ploughed and planted with vetch, even as they had planned to do with the House of God. And that day they made a festive day.10 If you like say: They were fit to be priestly garments, or, if you like, say: It is time to work for the Lord: they have made void Thy law.11

    http://juchre.org/talmud/sanhedrin/sanhedrin5.htm#91a
    Talmud – Mas. Sanhedrin 91a
    On another occasion the Ishmaelites and the Ketureans 23 came for a lawsuit against the Jews before Alexander of Macedon. They pleaded thus: ‘Canaan belongs jointly to all of us, for it is written,, Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son;24 and it is [further] written, And these are the generations of Isaac,’ Abraham’s son.’25 Thereupon Gebiha b. Pesisa said to the Sages: ‘Give me permission to go and plead against them before Alexander of Macedon. Should they defeat me then say, “Ye have defeated one of our ignorant men; whilst if I defeat them, say, “The Law of Moses has defeated you.”‘ So they gave him permission, and he went and pleaded against them. ‘Whence do ye adduce your proof?’ asked he. ‘From the Torah,’ they replied. ‘Then I too,’ said he, ‘will bring you proof only from the Torah, for it is written, And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts:26 if a father made a bequest to his children in his lifetime and sent them away from each other, has one any claim upon the other? [Obviously not.]’

    http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-11.htm
    Josephus, Antiquities, Book xi, Chapter 8.
    1. About this time it was that Philip, king of Macedon, was treacherously assaulted and slain at Egae by Pausanias, the son of Cerastes, who was derived from the family of Oreste, and his son Alexander succeeded him in the kingdom; who, passing over the Hellespont, overcame the generals of Darius’s army in a battle fought at Granicum. So he marched over Lydia, and subdued Ionia, and overran Caria, and fell upon the places of Pamphylia, as has been related elsewhere.
    4. Now Alexander, when he had taken Gaza, made haste to go up to Jerusalem; and Jaddua the high priest, when he heard that, was in an agony, and under terror, as not knowing how he should meet the Macedonians, since the king was displeased at his foregoing disobedience. He therefore ordained that the people should make supplications, and should join with him in offering sacrifice to God, whom he besought to protect that nation, and to deliver them from the perils that were coming upon them; whereupon God warned him in a dream, which came upon him after he had offered sacrifice, that he should take courage, and adorn the city, and open the gates; that the rest should appear in white garments, but that he and the priests should meet the king in the habits proper to their order, without the dread of any ill consequences, which the providence of God would prevent. Upon which, when he rose from his sleep, he greatly rejoiced, and declared to all the warning he had received from God. According to which dream he acted entirely, and so waited for the coming of the king.
    5. For Alexander, when he saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed with fine linen, and the high priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his mitre on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he approached by himself, and adored that name, and first saluted the high priest. The Jews also did all together, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; whereupon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind. However, Parmenio alone went up to him, and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, “I did not adore him, but that God who hath honored him with his high priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dios in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is that, having seen no other in that habit, and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the Divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.” And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest’s direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him 363 wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year. He granted all they desired.

  7. θ says:

    Alexander is depicted as a new convert who worships Jehovah the same God of Abraham.
    Jewish Historian Josephus wrote his historical findings in Antiquities, Book xi, Chapter 8, that the king Alexander adored God who hath honored Jaddua with temple priesthood, and he went up into the Jerusalem temple, he offered sacrifice to God according to the high priest’s direction, he implemented the Tanach laws for Jews, and didn’t collect tribute on the seventh year.

    In Talmud, tractate Yoma 69a and Sanhedrin 91a described the king Alexander bowed to Tetragrammaton engraving of Simeon the priest and preferred Jews (Isaac) over Arabians (Ishmael) on a case of ownership of Abraham’s purchased houses (but not all Canaan land), by approving arguments of the Torah.

    In “Alexander Romance”, Alexander was praying to Jehovah.
    ://archive.org/stream/cu31924091208573/cu31924091208573_djvu.txt
    Wallis Budge, The Life and Exploits of Alexander the Great, Coptic manuscripts.
    Then God, may He be blessed and exalted! put it into the heart of the angel to call Alexander Two-horned, and when the angel had called him by this name Alexander grieved exceedingly, for he thought that he was cursing him thereby, and he wept and lifted up his heart to God the Highest. And the angel said unto him, What is it that maketh thee to weep? And The name Alexander said to him, Thou didst call me by the name ‘Two-horned,’ but my name is Alexander, the son of the Greek, and the servant of the servants of the glorious God, and I thought’ that thou hadst cursed me by calling me by this name. The angel spake unto him, saying, O man, I did not curse thee, I only called thee by the [name] by which thou and the works which thou doest are known. Thou hast come unto me, and I praise thee because, from the east to the west, [the whole earth] hath been given unto thee; but it is the glorious God Who hath given thee dominion [over it], and it hath not come to pass by [thine own] strength.
    And the angel continued to speak unto him instructingly, saying, The glorious God hath called thee by this name, which is the name of thy xhe angei actions; hearken and understand that which I shall say unto thee. When thou seest an earth-quake in one country and not in another, then know that God hath commanded this mountain to make that country to shake and quake by means of one of the roots which belong to the
    mountain. And it is thus with the members of a man’s body, for when one of them suffereth pain the others do not suffer with it, and similarly the earthquake which is in one country shall not be in all the earth; for when the whole earth shall quake then shall it be destroyed, together with all those that are therein. And I say unto thee, O thou Two-horned, that the’ bitter water and the sweet water which flow forth from the earth, and from this very country, are one, for they proceed from this mountain.
    And God Almighty, to Whom belong glory and power, hath placed in its bowels sweet and bitter, and He hath set in its bowels water, even as He hath placed in each tree the fruit which belongeth thereunto, and in the children of Adam the nature which belongeth to each. Know this, O Two-horned. Then the Two-horned again asked the angel, saying, Do the righteous pass by this mountain when they go to the throne of God, the Merciful. The angel said, There is neither door nor road therein, and none can travel beyond this mountain. The track – neither from our side’ nor from thine. And the Two-horned said unto the angel, I desire thee to tell me the meaning of the words.

    //juchre.org/talmud/yoma/yoma4.htm
    Talmud – Mas. Yoma 69a
    It is the day on which the Cutheans demanded the House of our God from Alexander the Macedonian so as to destroy it, and he had given them the permission, whereupon some people came and informed Simeon the Just.8 What did the latter do? He put on his priestly garments, robed himself in priestly garments, some of the noblemen of Israel went with him carrying fiery torches in their hands, they walked all the night, some walking on one side and others on the other side, until the dawn rose. When the dawn rose he [Alexander] said to them: Who are these [the Samaritans]? They answered: The Jews who rebelled against you. As he reached Antipatris,9 the sun having shone forth, they met. When he saw Simeon the Just, he descended from his carriage and bowed down before him. They said to him: A great king like yourself should bow down before this Jew? He answered: His image it is which wins for me in all my battles. He said to them: What have you come for? They said: Is it possible that star-worshippers should mislead you to destroy the House wherein prayers are said for you and your kingdom that it be never destroyed! He said to them: Who are these? They said to him: These are Cutheans who stand before you. He said: They are delivered into your hand. At once they perforated their heels, tied them to the tails of their horses and dragged them over thorns and thistles, until they came to Mount Gerizim, which they ploughed and planted with vetch, even as they had planned to do with the House of God. And that day they made a festive day.10 If you like say: They were fit to be priestly garments, or, if you like, say: It is time to work for the Lord: they have made void Thy law.11

    //juchre.org/talmud/sanhedrin/sanhedrin5.htm#91a
    Talmud – Mas. Sanhedrin 91a
    On another occasion the Ishmaelites and the Ketureans 23 came for a lawsuit against the Jews before Alexander of Macedon. They pleaded thus: ‘Canaan belongs jointly to all of us, for it is written,, Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son;24 and it is [further] written, And these are the generations of Isaac,’ Abraham’s son.’25 Thereupon Gebiha b. Pesisa said to the Sages: ‘Give me permission to go and plead against them before Alexander of Macedon. Should they defeat me then say, “Ye have defeated one of our ignorant men; whilst if I defeat them, say, “The Law of Moses has defeated you.”‘ So they gave him permission, and he went and pleaded against them. ‘Whence do ye adduce your proof?’ asked he. ‘From the Torah,’ they replied. ‘Then I too,’ said he, ‘will bring you proof only from the Torah, for it is written, And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts:26 if a father made a bequest to his children in his lifetime and sent them away from each other, has one any claim upon the other? [Obviously not.]’

    //www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-11.htm
    Josephus, Antiquities, Book xi, Chapter 8.
    1. About this time it was that Philip, king of Macedon, was treacherously assaulted and slain at Egae by Pausanias, the son of Cerastes, who was derived from the family of Oreste, and his son Alexander succeeded him in the kingdom; who, passing over the Hellespont, overcame the generals of Darius’s army in a battle fought at Granicum. So he marched over Lydia, and subdued Ionia, and overran Caria, and fell upon the places of Pamphylia, as has been related elsewhere.
    4. Now Alexander, when he had taken Gaza, made haste to go up to Jerusalem; and Jaddua the high priest, when he heard that, was in an agony, and under terror, as not knowing how he should meet the Macedonians, since the king was displeased at his foregoing disobedience. He therefore ordained that the people should make supplications, and should join with him in offering sacrifice to God, whom he besought to protect that nation, and to deliver them from the perils that were coming upon them; whereupon God warned him in a dream, which came upon him after he had offered sacrifice, that he should take courage, and adorn the city, and open the gates; that the rest should appear in white garments, but that he and the priests should meet the king in the habits proper to their order, without the dread of any ill consequences, which the providence of God would prevent. Upon which, when he rose from his sleep, he greatly rejoiced, and declared to all the warning he had received from God. According to which dream he acted entirely, and so waited for the coming of the king.
    5. For Alexander, when he saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed with fine linen, and the high priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his mitre on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he approached by himself, and adored that name, and first saluted the high priest. The Jews also did all together, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; whereupon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind. However, Parmenio alone went up to him, and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, “I did not adore him, but that God who hath honored him with his high priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dios in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is that, having seen no other in that habit, and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the Divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.” And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest’s direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him 363 wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year. He granted all they desired.

  8. madmanna says:

    All after the fact. Just opinions of the writers. No prophet needed for this stuff. Take it or leave it. Islam took it.

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