My statements in bold with asterisks preceding, Faiz reply underneath

Welcome back madmanna.

******I am not arguing for this. I take it as a given from the nature of revelation that it is true and God preserves it or else what would be the point? I also don’t believe that the so-called chains of narration prove in a scientific sense that the Quran is what it claims to be.

So, you are just making an a priori assumption. That’s the problem from the get-go. This is the foundation of the rest of your response. You simply assume that “it is true”, which spares you the trouble of actually seeking proof for it. It is nothing more than a circular argument.

******I don’t see your point to be honest. The growth process starts at birth and finishes sometime after the teenage years, i.e. when Ishmael was a lad he was still growing. It doesn’t finish because there is a bar mitvah either. There are different words which indicate at which stage the subject of the narrative has reached in his growth process. It is altogether natural to use these words to differentiate between the various points in the stage of the growth process. The bible does this. What is fishy about this?

The word used to describe both Ishmael and Moses (peace be upon them) is exactly the same. You have not given any good reason as to why we should assume that the meaning is different in each case. The fact that the Bible does not differentiate is exactly the point! It is Jews and Christians who have twisted the meaning to suit their own agendas. On the other hand, scholars are acknowledging the clear facts. They know that the text does not allow for Ishmael be older than a few months or years at the time of the exile as I previously showed:

…in a 2001 article in the journal “Vetus Testamentum”, S. Nikaido of Berkeley University made a very interesting observation about the depiction of Ishmael in Genesis 21, which supports our contention that the story has been altered by Jewish scribes. Nikaido states:

“According to Gen. xvii 25 (P), Ishmael was at least thirteen. Therefore, Gen. Rabbah 53.13 (also Rashi) suggests that he was carried because of illness; Abravanel interprets we”et-hayyeled as meaning Ishmael helped carry the provisions. Modern commentators, however, fault the discrepancy on P’s superimposed chronology (Gen. xvi 16 and xxi 5; xvii 25), a phenomenon occurring elsewhere (e.g., Gen. xii 11 compared with xvii 17 and xii 4). The text clearly does not portray Ishmael as a grown child (P) but most likely as an infant (E), since Hagar not only carries him (xxi 14) but also “casts” him under a bush (v. 15; cf. Exod i 22) and “lifts him up” (v. 18). Other clues include: God hears the child’s voice (v. 17), presumably crying, rather than his mother’s (E. Fripp, “Note on Gen. xxi 6. 8-12”, ZAW 12 [1892], pp. 164-65), the reference to his “growing” (v. 20), and the fact that Hagar is not portrayed as being in any mortal danger but only the child.”

******Why not? Why should the same be true for Ishmael?

Because the word used in the original Hebrew is the same, not different. So why would the translation be different? Isn’t it obvious that the translators are deliberately twisting the meaning? It looks that way to me. You don’t see it because you don’t want to see it. I understand your apprehension, but the truth is that the text does not support your belief that Ishmael was a teenager.

******If God is controlling the narrative it’s up to him what he wants to say. If you want to see a jewish conspiracy fair enough. There are other possible reasons. I don’t have to conclude that there was a conspiracy. Unless you have compelling evidence which I do not see and which I believe derives rather from your prejudice.

That’s your problem from the get-go. You accuse me of “prejudice”, but you don’t even consider that perhaps it is you who is “prejudiced”. Look at your response. You assume that “God is controlling the narrative”, but when pressed for evidence, you present none. You just assume that to be the case. And in an ironic twist, you then ask me for “compelling evidence”! Do you at least realize how ironic your statement is?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that “there are other possible reasons”. So far, you have presented none.

***** I think it is quite logical to deduce from the narrative that Hagar has placed Ishmael under a bush because he was sick and close to death and she left him for dead. The idea that they have no water and this has no consequences is irrational but it seems to be your belief.

Where does it say that? Why are you assuming things without proof? I don’t know why you seem to be under the impression that you don’t need to present proof for any of your assumptions.

The Jewish rabbis also just assumed that Ishmael must have been “sick” or “injured”. They based it on nothing either.

Do you think it is “quite logical” to also assume that Hagar somehow managed to carry her 16 year old son across the desert until they both ran out of energy, as the rabbis assumed? Here is what Rashi said in his commentary:

“He also placed the child on her shoulder, because Sarah had cast an evil eye upon him, and he was seized by a fever so that he could not walk on his feet.”

This doesn’t seem “irrational” to you???

But somehow, it seems perfectly “logical” for you to assume that the teenage Ishmael needed to be cared for by his mother rather than the other way around.

******Yes, but God revealed his moral will verbally from the beginning and through the conscience. They did not die because they were idolaters. They died because their thoughts, and as a result their actions, were only evil continually. So if someone dies who has not been warned is that an unjust action on the part of Allah? It would seem so according to your logic.

Again, no proof, just assumptions. Where does the Bible say this?

And if God “revealed his moral will verbally from the beginning”, then why was there a need for “written laws” later on? You keep moving the goal post when your previous argument fails under scrutiny, and you present no proof for your new assumptions.

You also don’t seem to understand the Islamic position. Death is not a punishment. It is the natural order of things. Everyone dies. It is not “unjust” on the part of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) that someone dies without receiving a warning, because we know from a hadith that He will not judge that person until he is tested in the Hereafter. On the other hand, it would seem that according to your logic, it is perfectly “just” for God to wipe out the world without warning because of some vague “conscience” factor.

Also, why did you ignore the story of Jonah (peace be upon him)? Why was he sent to the people of Nineveh to warn them before punishment was sent upon them? Did they have “written laws”? Or did they not have a “conscience”? Why are you ignoring this story? Is it deliberate?

******Why should the message change because there is only prophet instead of many? Why should rejection have a different consequence after Mohammed? If idolatry was punished by death before Mohammed why not the same punishment after Mohammed? So if the idolaters do not wage war against Muslims they can continue their idolatrous way of life? Is that what you are saying? If nobody wages war against the idolaters they will just continue with their idolatry won’t they? This does not jive with the Quran in my view.

Yes, it does. You are not an expert on the Quran. The Quran says that everyone is responsible for their actions, but that there is no compulsion in religion. If an idolater continues to worship idols, despite being warned to stop, he can continue to do so without fear of being persecuted. But when he dies, he will go to Hell, as the Quran and Ahadith state.

As for the message, I already explained why it changed. Islam is universal and applies to all mankind for all time, not just one particular nation in a specific time period. Of course the message would be different in some ways. But certain things remain the same. Idolatry is still condemned as a heinous sin. Shirk is condemned as a heinous sin. Adultery, murder, theft etc. are all sins. The laws to deal with these things may have changed, but the spirit of the law did not change.

*******I don’t agree with your claim that this is linguistic proof of anything. The text just states that in the case of Moses the growth process was finished and he was a fully grown man. In the case of Ishmael that he was still growing because he was called a lad.

He was called a “lad” in the English translation, not in the original Hebrew. That’s the point you are not getting. In the original Hebrew, both Ishmael and Moses were referred to as “hay-yeled” (which the KJV inconsistently translates as “child” in one place and “lad” in another). In the original Hebrew, both Ishmael and Moses “way-yig-dal”, which means both “grew”. You did not refute these facts. You just made an assumption based on another assumption. The linguistic evidence is undeniable (see the quote from Professor Nikaido above). In fact, it was obvious even to early Jewish scribes, and prompted the author of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q225 to completely omit the “Ishmael narratives” as I also pointed out before:

In a 2006 article in the journal “Dead Sea Discoveries”, Betsy Halpern-Amaru made the following interesting observation about a variant of the story in question in the fragment of the Dead Scrolls known as 4Q225:
“…the author of 4Q225 develops a structure that creates a new backdrop for the narrative of the Aqedah. Prefacing the account of the Aqedah is a summary presentation of the promises of a son and multiple progeny in Gen 15:2–6 (2 i 3–7). Isaac’s birth is announced immediately thereafter (2 1 8–9a) and thereby is explicitly portrayed as the fulfillment of the preceding divine promise of a son. The Ishmael narratives that intervene between the promises of the covenant making in Genesis 15 and the birth of Isaac are omitted. Indeed, in 4Q225 Ishmael is never born. Consequently, when God commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son (2 i 11), Isaac is quite literally…the only son the patriarch has.”

So, it would seem that there was a “Jewish conspiracy” after all, at least in this regard. These are the facts. Whether you want to accept them or not is entirely up to you, of course.

I look forward to your response whenever.

And I to yours.

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77 Responses to My statements in bold with asterisks preceding, Faiz reply underneath

  1. madmanna says:

    “low-level rationalisation” ????

    this comment will be deleted.

  2. Ninja says:

    Here’s the obvious problem concerning ‘Infant Ishmael Presumption” as being shown in Gen 21:14, And Abraham riseth early in the morning, and taketh bread, and a bottle of water, and giveth unto Hagar (placing it on her shoulder), also the lad,

    Notice how Abraham gave bread and bottle(waterskin to be exact) for the consumption of two persons as they went to the desert and put them on Hagar’s shoulder.

    Firstly, It’s nearly impossible to say those are just ‘small snack’ since Hagar and Ishmael were going to a harsh desert and not returning.

    Secondly, since it’s impossible to presume them as snacks then the baggage surely were quite HUGE (plenty of bread and a huge waterskin for drink).

    Thirdly, considering the huge baggage and the harsh place they would go to, it’s impossible to take Ishmael despite his infant’s physique and somehow inserted him along with those huge baggage, all to be put on Hagar’s shoulder, it’s just too much to handle not only the load factor but also the distance factor (it’s long way journey and by putting that kind of loads she would’ve not made it even in 15 MINUTES) and nature factor(the harsh condition of the desert).

    Fourthly, It’s more logical if the food supplies were also being carried by Ishmael beside Hagar as the correct interpretation should be for the phrase, taketh bread, and a bottle of water, and giveth unto Hagar (placing it on her shoulder), ALSO THE LAD , as can be seen this is not about placing all on Hagar’s shoulder but placing the supplies BOTH to Hagars and Ishmael. Moreover it makes their SPACE FOR FOOD SUPPLY LARGER and this perfectly suites the narrative on going to harsh place such as desert, compares to ‘the other theory’ which has LESS SUPPLY and Baggage OVERLOAD (especially on a woman’s shoulder) that are practically too much to be implanted in real life especially considering with the scenario of a mother and son go to a harsh desert.

  3. Ninja says:

    ++ Here is what Rashi said in his commentary:“He also placed the child on her shoulder++

    Yeaa, but the muslim guy’s Jewish referral also imply the phrase in Gen 21:14 ”… also the lad”, indicates that Ishmael also carried the supplies

    [According to Gen. xvii 25 (P), Ishmael was at least thirteen. Therefore, Gen. Rabbah 53.13 (also Rashi) suggests that he was carried because of illness; Abravanel interprets we”et-hayyeled as meaning Ishmael helped carry the provisions.]

    Firstly, the fact is the major interpretation of Rabbis is , Ishmael did carry the supplies right beside Hagar and not at the top of her shoulder, this is the opinion of raabis such as Saadia Gaon,Nachmanides, and Radak.

    Second, Rashi just wanted to follow the narrative of Ishmael having sick as being stated in Talmud(Genesis Rabbah) where he assumed Ishmael had already been sick before being casted out however ‘the sick’ part can also be applied AFTER Hagar being casted out where Ishmael became sick probably because of hunger and dehydration.

    Of course the muslim guy might argue it might also show the scenario of Ishmael carried the HUGE BAGGAGE OF SUPPLIES WHILE at the top of her mother’s shoulder.

    Thirdly, quite odd actually to imagine a little child CARRIED such amount of supplies even with the situation where he carried them on the top of Hagar’s shoulder, when rather it would’ve been far more sensible to depict Ishmael as child being inserted between the baggage in order to suit this ‘Infant Ishmael narrative’. Sure, the muslim guy might argue again that Ishmael just carried certain portion of baggage at his mother’s shoulder yet it would still be an odd scenario.

    ++both Ishmael and Moses were referred to as “hay-yeled”++
    This word ‘hay-yelled’ also can be applied to a TEEN (14-17yrs old) , as we read in the story of Elisha and Elijah resurrecting a TEEN back from the dead.

    (2 King 4:32-34) When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy(hay-yeled) lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the Lord. Then he got on the bed and LAY ON THE BOY, MOUTH TO MOUTH EYES TO EYES , HANDS TO HANDS as HE STRETCHED HIMSELF OUT ON HIM, the boy’s body grew warm.

    The same method to resurrect a dead teen also had been conducted before by Elijah in 1 Kings 17:23.

    It’s so logically clear when a full grown man STRETCHED HIMSELF OUT with his mouth FACING The TEEN’s MOUTH , his eyes FACING the TEEN’s EYES and his hands FACING the TEEN’s HANDS then the opposite body should’ve been at least physically beyond any infant in size, not to mention the capability to take a full grown man weight laying on top of him for it would have crushed the ‘boy’ if he had been an infant nor even 12 years old.

    Another term used for both teen and child is nar-ar such as Joseph in his age of 17 is called as ‘nar-ar’ in Gen 37:2.

    By the way Bar-Mitzvah is never clearly stated in bible yet alone the age of the child whom participates in it, even there is no evidence on this ritual along with the regulations within it as originally practiced by Jews before 4th CE.

    All of these prove ‘hay-yelled’ is used interchangeably as child and 15-17yrs old teen.

  4. Ninja says:

    +++Yours is truly a ridiculous argument.
    Can’t you think properly that both the bread (singular) and a bottle (singular) just need to carried by her hands, not to be placed on her shoulder?+++

    Nope You are the one who ridiculing yourself here Can you imagine TWO PERSONS going to harsh,hot and dry place like desert with only single bread and a bottle??

    word ‘lehem’ for food also applies to plural or collective things Gen 47:12, Gen 31:54 ,Exodus 16:3

    The story is too pretty simple to comprehend, both Hagar and the TEEN were being given plenty of bread and HUGE water skinS, it’s so sensible because they would certainly have more supplies (compare to just give the supplies all to Hagar only)

    +++Can’t you think rationally how weird it is that Ishmaelites – who conquered a vast areas from Shur in Syria and Havilah in Arabia – never try to return and reclaim again their “legitimate inheritance” of houses and lands in Hebron (place where Ishmael was born)?

    Legitimate?? Even Allah had never promised the land to the Ishmaelite nor Arab nor SARACEN nor whatever you wanna call them.

    Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: ‘Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel] (Surah 17)

    Sarah said in Gen 21:8 , Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac

    and God approved Sarah verse 12, But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.

    Quran though not specific in displaying it all but affirms the casting of Ishmael from his father’s house.

    God even parted the Red Sea just to make a way from the Israelite to come to Canaan and God spoke in the Horeb mountain through a flaming fire burning almost the entire mountain as He accompanied the Israelite to come to occupy the land, nothing happened to Ishmaelite though.

  5. Ninja says:

    In a 2006 article in the journal “Dead Sea Discoveries”, Betsy Halpern-Amaru made the following interesting observation about a variant of the story in question in the fragment of the Dead Scrolls known as 4Q225:

    “…the author of 4Q225 develops a structure that creates a new backdrop for the narrative of the Aqedah. ….and the birth of Isaac are omitted. Indeed, in 4Q225 Ishmael is never born.

    So, it would seem that there was a “Jewish conspiracy” after all

    Yup, just another Islamo-Nazi propaganda with this anti-Semitic stuff
    A. 4Q225 Manuscript of Qumran is believed to be one of the earlier form of Book of Jubilees, a book that is practically rejected by Judaism and major denominations of Christianity especially when it contains many fairy-tales and mythical things being combined with the story excerpted from the bible. It shouldn’t surprise us since as many fairy-tale book , it wants to portray their patriarch Isaac more at the center of attention, however the problem is the present Book of Jubilees DOES GIVE ACCOUNT ABOUT HAGAR AND ISHMAEL which in this case it makes whatever ‘alleged conspiracy’ that might’ve happened, had surely failed.

    B. 4Q225 is a rejected book, The logic behind Muslim for using it to undermine bible is just blatant incoherent way of thinking to the utmost.

    The primary error here, what’s the logic(if there’s any) for using a FALSE NARRATION within a REJECTED book as the basis to undermine the bible ?

    Considering the facts:

    ** Bible accepts the existence of Ishmael as first son of Abraham which muslim also agrees upon as the truth.

    **Bible and Muslim AGREE 4Q225 seems to give FALSE NARRATION because the exclusion of Ishmael’s story.

    **Christian,Jews and Muslim agree 4Q225 is a Fairy-tale & fabricated book which should be rejected.

    It would’ve been acceptable to proper common sense if 4Q225 had been used by muslim to prove some truth that the Bible denied,

    How can a Truth in Bible (about the story of Ishmael) then somehow is proven false by the exclusion of this truth in a rejected book such as 4Q225 ? especially when both christian,jews and muslim all agree the exclusion of Ishmael’s story in 4Q225 is wrong? this is plainly unintelligible TWISTED way of thinking .

    The muslim might still try to argue, 4Q225 is meant to prove the ‘conspiracy’ to downplay Ishmael was really existed, but responding to this objection (in case it occurred) ,

    I say, Fabrication does exist however it’s foolishness for example to say since False Hadiths exist then Saheeh(Authentic) Hadith is corrupted, but funnily this is the very mindset the muslim guy is applying.

    How can the exclusion of Ishmael story in 4Q225 be the evidence of successful conspiracy to corrupt the OT since Jewish Bible and even Book of Jubilees have kept the story of Ishmael intact? And even if this ‘conspiracy theory’ had been tolerated to be accepted then the most optimal & logical conclusion would’ve been, the conspiracy had failed and been rejected by both Jews and Christian.

    Again such a unintelligible twisted way of thinking :
    How can anyone in their right mind use a PROVEN FAILED attempt of fabrication to prove the fabrication attempt has SUCCEDED?

  6. Ninja says:

    @madmanna
    also don’t believe that the so-called CHAINS OF NARRATION prove in a scientific sense that the Quran is what it claims to be

    Do you mean the chain of narration in transmitting Quran ?

    All that I can say is the present Hafs version of Quran which is being used by 90% of Muslim transmitted from a man name Imam Hafs ibn Sulaymn and one fascinating thing about him is,

    ALMOST IN UNANIMOUS WAY muslim AGREE Imam Hafs IS A LIAR and likes to make things up.

    Imam Hafs is deemed as A LIAR particularly in the matter of transmitting hadiths , because he is famous and acknowledged as person who likes TO LIE and FABRICATE hadiths.

    [ Abu ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id Ad-Darimi and others said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah)”

    Al-‘Uqayli mentioned from Yahya (ibn Ma’in) that he was asked about him and he said: “He is nothing” (Laysa bi Shayin)

    And Abdullah ibn Imam Ahmad said: I heard my father saying: Hafs ibn Sulayman Abu ‘Umar Al-Qari is abandoned in Hadith (Matruk Al-Hadith).

    And Al-Bukhari said: “They left him”

    Ibrahim ibn Ya’qub Al-Juzjani said: ‘They have left him from a long time.”

    AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR, abandoned (Matruk), he used to FABRICATE Hadith.”

    Al-Hakim Abu Ahmad said: “Zahib Al-Hadith” (He forgets Hadith)

    taken from : http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/archive/index.php/t-1292.html ]

    [ As an example, this is what is written about Hafs Ibn Sulayman, perhaps the most famous and most widely acclaimed of all the disciples of the major qurra:

    Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abi Hatim says that he is matruk al-hadith. Nasai says that he is not trustworthy. In the opinion of Yahya Ibn Main as quoted by Abu Qudamah Sarakhsi and Uthman Ibn Said al-Darimi he is not trustworthy. Ali Ibn al-Madini says: he is weak in matters of Hadith and I have forsaken him voluntarily. Abu Zurah also says that he is weak in matters of Hadith Ibn Muhammad al-Baghdadi says that the Ahadith narrated by him are not worth writing and all of them mention unfamiliar things in religion. Zakariyya Ibn Yahya al-Saji narrates from Simmak and Alqamah Ibn Marthad and Qays Ibn Muslim that his Ahadith are not reliable. Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abi Hatim says that he asked his father about Hafs. His father said that his Ahadith are not even worth writing. He is weak in matters of Hadith, cannot be attested to and his Ahadith are not acceptable. Abd al-Rahman Ibn Yusuf says that he is a GREAT LIAR, WORTHY OF BEING FORSAKEN and FORGES forges Ahadith.

    It seems quite strange that a person so WIDELY REGARDED AS UNRELIABLE (EVEN CALLED A LIAR) in accepting Hadith from be regarded as a very dependable person as far the Qur’an is concerned(sic).

    taken from http://www.understanding-islam.org.uk/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4286%3Avariant-readings-of-the-qur-an&Itemid=102 ]

    A LIAR is totally different from CLUMSY or RECKLESS which is someone who unconsciously commits errors, but this terminology is attributed to Imam Hafs again none other reason but because Imam Hafs is simply a proven HABITUAL LIAR. Everybody knows LIAR is a strong word to be attributed to a person, it goes down deep into the person’s moral character, yet LIAR is the appropriate terminology to be put on Imam Hafs CHARACTER according to nearly UNANIMOUS opinion of muslim’s scholars..

    Somehow in twisted way, muslim argues Imam Hafs maybe a liar in transmitting hadith but he is a honest and reliable person in transmitting Quran(sic). This is just against the proper law of accountability, how can a person who has failed to handle thing that less important than Quran (hadith) will be reliable and accountable to handle Quran ?

    Muslim argues that a person’s failure in one field eg. Accounting can’t disapprove him for being a a great chef, however this an irrelevant example since the twos are just totally different field for in the case of Imam Hafs, it’s about practically THE SAME FIELD which is field of Narrating&Transmitting where the more suitable analogy here would be ,a general non-specialized doctor should be excellent in his job before being upgraded to a specialized brain surgeon , it would’ve been such an upside world if the doctor had been performing terribly but still being given the responsibility to operate a patient.

    Not only the logic is flaw concerning expertise but worst than that considering the fact LYING actually is not a matter of expertise but about CHARACTER and in WHATEVER FIELD of occupation a LYING AND DISHONEST PERSON is just unacceptable trait, period.

    The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: ‘Do not tell lies about me, for telling lies about me leads to Hell (Fire).’” (Sunan Ibn Madjah Saheeh) The hadith just confirms the Hafs Quran that is being used by 90% of muslim in the world came from a resident of HELL.

    Another painstaking fact to the muslim,
    the teacher of Imam Hafs that is Imam Asim whom Imam Hafs SOLELY get his Quran recitation from, is acknowledged as a person with WEAK MEMORY(regarding narrating and transmitting hadiths)

    which also means he is failed in field of narrating and transmitting but somehow his transmission is accepted by 90% of muslims. .

    WOULD ANY BODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WILLING TO TRUST A BOOK LIKE QURAN WHICH IS TRANSMITTED BY A WIDELY KNOWN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs) AND A WIDELY KNOWN RETARD (Imam Asim) ???

  7. madmanna says:

    @madmanna
    also don’t believe that the so-called CHAINS OF NARRATION prove in a scientific sense that the Quran is what it claims to be

    Do you mean the chain of narration in transmitting Quran ?”

    @ Ninja,

    Yes, I mean the chains of transmission are not empirical scientific proof. We don’t know anything about these people mentioned in the chains. All we know is what is claimed of them. They have gone and they cannot speak to us. A chain of narration is written hearsay. It is not evidence that would be allowed to convict or exonerate anyone in a court of law The dead are not allowed to give evidence. Perhaps these people would tell us not to believe the Quran and the Hadith if we could speak to them now.

  8. Ninja says:

    madmanna says: Yes, I mean the chains of transmission are not empirical scientific proof

    Agree, The reliability of the chain of Quran transmission is practically MYTH

    If the law of mutawatir transmission of hadith had been applied on Quran , then the Quran Hafs version that muslim hold right now would have not been validated.

    1. Imam Asim the person whom Hafs version of Quran is derived from (also where the name Qiraat Asim came from) is well admitted almost unanimously by muslims as a person with WEAK MEMORIZATION.

    2. Imam Hafs Ibn Sulaymn , the SOLE transmitter of Quran Hafs version is A PROVEN LIAR , as ACKNOWLEDGED BY MUSLIMS ALMOST UNANIMOUSLY.

    Just Imagine WOULD ANY BODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WILLING TO TRUST A BOOK LIKE QURAN WHICH IS TRANSMITTED BY A WIDELY KNOWN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs) AND A WIDELY KNOWN RETARD (Imam Asim) ???

    Furthermore

    3. Imam Badr al-Din al-Zarkashi’s Burhan (8th/14th century) , a great sunni scholar of Ulumul-Quran ( Theological Study of Quran) states

    The opinion of the majority is that these seven readings are mutawatir. However, one opinion is that they are mashhur.The truth in this regard is that they are mutawatir from these seven [qurra]. As far as their tawatur from the Prophet (sws) is concerned, this is DEBATABLE. For the chains of narrators of these seven are found in the books of qiraat. These chains are transmission from a single person to another and DO NOT FULFILL THE CONDITION OF TAWATUR neither from the first narrator to the last nor in between

    http://www.understanding-islam.org.uk/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4286%3Avariant-readings-of-the-qur-an&Itemid=102

    Now, if the chains of narrators of each of these variant readings are examined, none of them can be claimed as mutawatir. They may be mutawatir from their famous originators but they are certainly not mutawatir all the way from these originators up to the Prophet (sws)

    So not only the persons who transmit the Quran are unreliable for one being A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs) and the other person had RETARDED memory (Imam Asim) but more over the transmission process of Quran itself HAS VIOLATED THE LAW OF TRANSMISSION as being admitted by muslim scholars themselves

    Quran Hafs according to Islamic standard itself is not a valid quran , but strangely 90% muslims from all over the world who follow Hafs version of Quran are willingly to simply turn themselves to be IDIOTS.

  9. θ says:

    “Ninja says: How can the exclusion of Ishmael story in 4Q225 be the evidence of successful conspiracy to corrupt the OT since Jewish Bible and even Book of Jubilees have kept the story of Ishmael intact?”

    It just proves that Essenes and Samaritans were not racist.
    Perhaps the Biblical scholars are true that there are many writers (Yahwists, Elohists, Priests, and Deuteronomists) of Torah.
    Fact:
    //sites.google.com/site/interlinearpentateuch/genesis-bereshit/chapter-16-1-16
    Genesis 16:12.
    Samaritan Pentateuch : and_he he-is-becoming * fruitful-you, *
    Masoretic: and_he he-is-becoming * wild, *
    DSS Qumran’s Essenes:

    Samaritan historians – equal to Jewish Josephus and Greek Tacitus – recorded that Ishmaelites build Mecca, just as Arabs claimed:
    //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmaelites
    The Samaritan book Asatir says in chapter VIII: “1. And after the death of Abraham, Ishmael reigned twenty seven years; 2. And all the children of Nebaot ruled for one year in the lifetime of Ishmael; 3. And for thirty years after his death from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates; and they built Mecca.; 4. For thus it is said (in Genesis 25:16): ‘As thou goest towards Ashur before all his brethren he lay.’” This text has been dated by Gaster to the third century BCE.

  10. θ says:

    //sites.google.com/site/interlinearpentateuch/genesis-bereshit/chapter-16-1-16
    Genesis 16:12.
    Samaritan Pentateuch : and_he he-is-becoming * fruitful-you, *
    Masoretic: and_he he-is-becoming * wild, *
    DSS Qumran’s Essenes: – – not available or omitted – –

  11. Ninja says:

    hahahaha… someone is getting agitated apparently 🙂

    you’re again mumbling unintelligibly the main focus is your ‘boyfriend’ seems to insist us to receive 4Q225 as our canon.

    THE TRUTH HURTS ain’t it ?
    —————————————————-
    So not only the persons who transmit the Quran are unreliable for one being A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs) and the other person had RETARDED memory (Imam Asim) but more over the transmission process of Quran itself HAS VIOLATED THE LAW OF TRANSMISSION as being admitted by muslim scholars themselves

    Quran Hafs according to Islamic standard itself is not a valid quran , but strangely 90% muslims from all over the world who follow Hafs version of Quran are willingly to simply turn themselves to be IDIOTS.
    ——————————————————

  12. θ says:

    “Ninja says: insist us to receive 4Q225 as our canon.”

    Islamic way of Chain of transmission is a good example that only the person who sees and meets the Prophet (either Jesus or Prophet Muhammad) has valid authority to select one canon from the non-canons.
    Uthman is one of ten earliest Moslem.
    On other hand, No one of the eyewitness of Jesus ever selects or confirms the effort of writing down four canonical Gospels during their life. Isn’t very weird that only Peter alone witnessed a unique occasion how Paul wrote his epistles?
    Why does Peter forget to mention Mark, Luke, Matthew, even John if they really had written down the Bible as much as Paul did?
    2Pet 3
    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    In the absence of proof, it is better to make a conclusion that No one of the eyewitness of Jesus ever selects or confirms the effort of writing down four canonical Gospels during their life.

  13. Ninja says:

    θ says:Islamic way of Chain of transmission is a good example

    Funny 🙂

    Your own respected and authoritative scholar affirm

    .

    Imam Badr al-Din al-Zarkashi’s Burhan (8th/14th century) , a great sunni scholar of Ulumul-Quran ( Theological Study of Quran) states

    As far as their tawatur from the Prophet (sws) is concerned, this is DEBATABLE. For the chains of narrators of these seven are found in the books of qiraat. These chains are transmission from a single person to another and DO NOT FULFILL THE CONDITION OF TAWATUR neither from the first narrator to the last nor in between

    By the way are you willing to follow the follower of Satan? Shall I inform you (O people!) upon whom the devils descend? They descend on every LYING, sinful person.S26:221-222

    Since almost all muslims unanimously agree Imam Hafs is A LIAR , and you following his recitation (HAFS Quran)

  14. θ says:

    “Ninja says: 1. Imam Asim WEAK MEMORIZATION. 2. Imam Hafs Ibn Sulaymn , A PROVEN LIAR ”

    All Moslems unanimously accepted that the Mekkah’s dialect of Hafs does not come from a recitation of later men but directly from at least two writings of Zayd Ibn Thabit (a Mekkan) and Ka’b (a Medinan who learned a Mekkan dialect).

  15. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Asim….Ibn Sulaymn”

    Two men must be time travelers, as they can return to the past (to the time of Zayd and Ka’b) from the future, in order to memorise a Mekkah’s dialect

  16. θ says:

    “Ninja says: So not only the persons who transmit the Quran are unreliable for one being A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs) and the other person had RETARDED memory (Imam Asim) ”

    They must be the 1st Arabian inventor of time machine. Two men must be time travelers, as they can return to the past (to the time of Zayd and Ka’b) from the future, in order to memorise a Mekkah’s dialect.
    All Moslems unanimously accepted that the Mekkah’s dialect of Hafs does not come from a recitation of later men but directly from at least two writings of Zayd Ibn Thabit (a Mekkan) and Ka’b (a Medinan who learned a Mekkan dialect).

  17. Ninja says:

    +++All Moslems unanimously accepted that the Mekkah’s dialect of Hafs does not come from a recitation of later men but directly from at least two writings of Zayd Ibn Thabit (a Mekkan) and Ka’b (a Medinan who learned a Mekkan dialect).++++

    Please educate yourself
    Imam Badr al-Din al-Zarkashi’s Burhan (8th/14th century) , a great sunni scholar of Ulumul-Quran ( Theological Study of Quran) states As far as their tawatur from the Prophet (sws) is concerned, this is DEBATABLE……………..These chains are transmission from a single person to another and DO NOT FULFILL THE CONDITION OF TAWATUR neither from the first narrator to the last nor in between

  18. θ says:

    Qirâ’a from Kûfah: The reading of ʿĀsim Ibn Abî an-Najûd (ʿAasim Ibn Bahdalah Ibn Abî an-Najûd): He died in 127 or 128 H.
    He reported from: Abû ʿAbd ar-Raḥmân as-Solammî, and Zirr Ibn Hubaysh.
    (i) Abû ʿAbd ar-Rahmân reported from ʿUthmân, and ʿAlî Ibn Abî Tâlib, and ‘Ubayy (Ibn Ka’b), and Zayd (Ibn Thâbit).
    (ii) And Zirr reported from Ibn Masʿud.[19]

    Two readings were reported from Aasim: The famous one is Hafs.

    All Hafs’s sources Uthman, Ali, Ka’b, Zayd Ibn Thabit approved Uthmani Mushaf.

  19. Ninja says:

    θ says: Two readings were reported from Aasim: The famous one is Hafs.
    FAMOUS FOR BEING A LIAR, agree? 🙂

    AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR, abandoned (Matruk), he used to FABRICATE Hadith

    Abu ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id Ad-Darimi and others said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah)

    .
    Imam Badr al-Din al-Zarkashi’s Burhan (8th/14th century) , a great sunni scholar of Ulumul-Quran ( Theological Study of Quran) states
    As far as their tawatur from the Prophet (sws) is concerned, this is DEBATABLE meaning muslim is actually still in confusion whether the recitation genuinely from their prophet or not

  20. θ says:

    Mekka’s dialect of Hafs is protected and internalised into a Mushaf (Uthmani Mushaf). Other Medinah’s dialect (such as Warsh and Qalun) is internalised into daily prayers in Mekka and Medinah.

    All Moslems unanimously accepted that the Mekkah’s dialect of Hafs does not come from a recitation of later men but directly from at least two writings of Zayd Ibn Thabit (a Mekkan) and Ka’b (a Medinan who learned a Mekkan dialect).

    Qirâ’a from Kûfah: The reading of ʿĀsim Ibn Abî an-Najûd (ʿAasim Ibn Bahdalah Ibn Abî an-Najûd): He died in 127 or 128 H.
    He reported from: Abû ʿAbd ar-Raḥmân as-Solammî, and Zirr Ibn Hubaysh.
    (i) Abû ʿAbd ar-Rahmân reported from ʿUthmân, and ʿAlî Ibn Abî Tâlib, and ‘Ubayy (Ibn Ka’b), and Zayd (Ibn Thâbit).
    (ii) And Zirr reported from Ibn Masʿud.[19]

    Two readings were reported from Aasim: The famous one is Hafs.

    All Hafs’s sources Uthman, Ali, Ka’b, Zayd Ibn Thabit approved Uthmani Mushaf.

  21. Ninja says:

    ++All Moslems unanimously accepted that the Mekkah’s dialect of Hafs does not come from a recitation of later men but directly from at least two writings of Zayd Ibn Thabit (a Mekkan) and Ka’b (a Medinan who learned a Mekkan dialect).++

    Of course as being told by Imam Hafs the LIAR.. agree? 🙂

    AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR, abandoned (Matruk), he used to FABRICATE Hadith

    Abu ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id Ad-Darimi and others said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah)

    ONLY AN IDIOT WILL TRUST A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR…agree ?

  22. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Of course as being told by Imam Hafs”

    Hafs’s dialect along with Utmani Mushaf approved by Uthman, Ali, Ka’b, Zayd Ibn Thabit have existed among Moslem’s world long time even before Asim and Ibn Sulayman were born.

  23. Ninja says:

    θ says: Hafs’s dialect along with Utmani Mushaf approved by Uthman, Ali, Ka’b, Zayd Ibn Thabit

    Sure..sure 🙂
    You of course fully aware A LIAR WILL CLAIM WHATEVER THINGS THEY LIKE TO CLAIM, right ?

    AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR, abandoned (Matruk), he used to FABRICATE Hadith

    Abu ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id Ad-Darimi and others said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah)

    ONLY AN IDIOT WILL TRUST A LIAR

  24. θ says:

    “Ninja says: said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah) ”

    A differing opinion from one man is weak, minor, and invalid.

  25. Ninja says:

    ++ A differing opinion from one man is weak, minor, and invalid.++

    As an example, this is what is written about Hafs Ibn Sulayman, perhaps the most famous and most widely acclaimed of all the disciples of the major qurra:

    Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abi Hatim says that he is matruk al-hadith. Nasai says that he is not trustworthy. In the opinion of Yahya Ibn Main as quoted by Abu Qudamah Sarakhsi and Uthman Ibn Said al-Darimi he is not trustworthy. Ali Ibn al-Madini says: he is weak in matters of Hadith and I have forsaken him voluntarily. Abu Zurah also says that he is weak in matters of Hadith Ibn Muhammad al-Baghdadi says that the Ahadith narrated by him are not worth writing and all of them mention unfamiliar things in religion. Zakariyya Ibn Yahya al-Saji narrates from Simmak and Alqamah Ibn Marthad and Qays Ibn Muslim that his Ahadith are not reliable. Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abi Hatim says that he asked his father about Hafs. His father said that his Ahadith are not even worth writing. He is weak in matters of Hadith, cannot be attested to and his Ahadith are not acceptable. Abd al-Rahman Ibn Yusuf says that he is a GREAT LIAR, WORTHY OF BEING FORSAKEN and FORGES forges Ahadith.

    Sorry for exposing the TRUTH if it might HURTS you 🙂

  26. θ says:

    “Ninja says: AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR..”

    Asim Ibn Bahdalah died in 127 or 128 H, whereas almost 100 years later Yahya ibn Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    When was AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash born?

  27. Ninja says:

    ++Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    When was AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash born?++

    Tell that to the owner of this legitimate website for Sunni Muslim http://www.understanding-islam.org.uk/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4286%3Avariant-readings-of-the-qur-an&Itemid=102

    I guess the SUNNIS who runs this website are just BUNCH OF LIARS right? 😀

  28. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Ali Ibn al-Madini says: he is weak in matters of Hadith”

    Hadith is not Qur’an, not either dialect.
    How can a person who can’t understand how Qiraat (dialect) is not Hadith can have opinion on the man who recited with Hafs’s dialect?
    Ali Ibn al-Madini was not yet born when Asim died in 127 or 128 H.

  29. θ says:

    “Ninja says: SUNNIS who runs this website”

    Having a differing opinion is allowed, but usually one opinion can’t have a stronger argument against majority opinion.

  30. Ninja says:

    ++How can a person who can’t understand how Qiraat (dialect) is not Hadith can have opinion on the man who recited with Hafs’s dialect?++

    it’s not about his ability to transmit but he is just simply A PROVEN LIAR

    If you have any doubt about the persons who confirmning Imam Hafs AS A LIAR then tell that to the people who run of this legitimate website for Sunni Muslim http://www.understanding-islam.org.uk/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4286%3Avariant-readings-of-the-qur-an&Itemid=102

    I guess the SUNNIS who run this website are just BUNCH OF LIARS right? 😀

  31. Ninja says:

    The majority of muslims AGREE , Imam HAFS is A LIAR
    I have submitted my evidence, and this evidence stands unless you give me any strong evidence to rebute this fact

  32. θ says:

    “Ninja says: I guess the SUNNIS who run this website are just BUNCH OF LIARS right? ”

    Opinion of majority Sunnis is more stronger than that of minority Sunnis.
    Asim Ibn Bahdalah died in 127 or 128 H, whereas almost 100 years later Yahya ibn Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    Ali Ibn al-Madini was not yet born when Asim died in 127 or 128 H. How can Ali know Asim?

  33. θ says:

    “Ninja says: The majority of muslims AGREE”

    Agree on what? We all agree that the future exists after the past.
    We all agree Hadith is not Qur’an.
    Dialect is not Mushaf.
    On the time machine? On the time travelers?

  34. Ninja says:

    Agree on what?++

    Imam Hafs is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR

    I have submitted my evidence, and this evidence stands unless you give me any strong evidence to rebute this fact

  35. θ says:

    “Ninja says: I have submitted my evidence, and this evidence stands”

    Evidence relates to logics.
    Asim Ibn Bahdalah died in 127 or 128 H, whereas almost 100 years later Yahya ibn Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    Ali Ibn al-Madini was not yet born when Asim died in 127 or 128 H. How can Ali know Asim?

  36. θ says:

    Isn’t very weird that only Peter alone witnessed a unique occasion how Paul wrote his epistles?

    Islamic way of Chain of transmission is a good example that only the person who sees and meets the Prophet (either Jesus or Prophet Muhammad) has valid authority to select one canon from the non-canons.
    Uthman is one of ten earliest Moslems.
    On other hand, No one of the eyewitness of Jesus ever selects or confirms the effort of writing down four canonical Gospels during their life. Isn’t very weird that only Peter alone witnessed a unique occasion how Paul wrote his epistles?
    Why does Peter forget to mention Mark, Luke, Matthew, even John if they really had written down the Bible as much as Paul did?
    2Pet 3
    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    In the absence of proof, it is better to make a conclusion that No one of the eyewitness of Jesus ever selects or confirms the effort of writing down four canonical Gospels during their life.

  37. Ninja says:

    Asim ???

    Are u NERVOUS or something? it’s IMAM HAFS who IS PROVEN AS HABITUAL LIAR BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS

  38. Ninja says:

    Imam Badr al-Din al-Zarkashi’s Burhan (8th/14th century) , a great sunni scholar of Ulumul-Quran ( Theological Study of Quran) states As far as their tawatur from the Prophet (sws) is concerned, this is DEBATABLE meaning muslim is actually still in confusion whether the recitation genuinely from their prophet or not

    One of the clearest example is in the matter of Basmalah

    Shaffi school claims ALL FIRST VERSE FOR EVERY CHAPTER IN QURAN IS BASMALAH

    Maliki claims BASMALA IS NOT A VERSE FOR EVERY CHAPTER IN QURAN EXCEPT SURAH AN-NAML

    Salafy claiims BASMALA IS THE FIRST VERSE OF FATIHA AND MIDDLE VERSE OF SURAH AN-NAML BUT NOT A VERSE IN OTHER CHAPTER

    …And none REJECT Our VERSES except the disbelievers (S29:47)

    But Sunni muslims tolerate Maliki Sunni for REJECTING VERSE BASMALAH on Surah Fatiha and even rejecting it as first verse on every Chapter of Quran

    And this means THE ABROGATION OF THE RULING IN S29:47

  39. θ says:

    “Ninja says: BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS”

    Methodology used may be parallel universe, quantum anachronism, relativity of uncertainty.
    Asim Ibn Bahdalah died in 127 or 128 H, whereas almost 100 years later Yahya ibn Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    Ali Ibn al-Madini was not yet born when Asim died in 127 or 128 H. How can Ali know Asim?

  40. θ says:

    “Ninja says: And none REJECT Our VERSES ”

    Dialect is not a verse in Mushaf.

  41. Ninja says:

    Asim?????????

    Dude..SERIOUSLY? are u all right? need some medication perhaps?

    I’M PARTICULARCLY TALKING ABOUT IMAM HAFS here not IMAM ASIM

    IMAM HAFS IS A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS

  42. θ says:

    “Ninja says: ’M PARTICULARCLY TALKING ABOUT IMAM HAFS here not IMAM ASIM”

    What is it Imam Hafs?
    But mostly Moslems know who the reciters of Hafs are. Asim was one of the most popular reciters of Hafs.

  43. Ninja says:

    θ says:What is it Imam Hafs?

    HAFS is where the name HAFS VERSION of QURAN come from, GOT IT?

    ROTFL… don’t be so NERVOUS will u ? 😀

    Imam HAFS IS A PROVEN LIAR ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS

  44. θ says:

    “Ninja says: A PROVEN LIAR”

    Asim was one of the most popular reciters of Hafs.
    Asim Ibn Bahdalah died in 127 or 128 H, whereas more than 100 years later Yahya ibn Ma’in died in 233 H. How can Yahya know Asim?
    Ali Ibn al-Madini was not yet born when Asim died in 127 or 128 H. How can Ali know Asim?

  45. Ninja says:

    +++Asim was one of the most popular reciters of Hafs++
    Asim is the teacher of Hafs, and the Quran u have right now (Hafs version) entirely came from Imam Hafs THE PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR as acknowledged by majority of muslim.
    .

  46. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Asim is the teacher of Hafs”

    What’s more important is, Asim the teacher of Hafs Ibn Sulayman is accepted by Moslems and scholars.

  47. Ninja says:

    θ says:What’s more important is,
    LOL

    The impotant is you don’t know for sure whatever Hafs has claimed about whatever stuff being taught from Asim is ENTIRELY true or not, since Imam Hafs IS A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR ACKNOWLEDGED BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS.

    Don’t be so NERVOUS will u ? 😀

  48. θ says:

    “Ninja says: stuff being taught from Asim is ENTIRELY true or not, ”

    As a teacher Asim taught many students and many reciters, that’s why later scholars can compare recitation of Hafs with recitation of other students of Asim.

  49. Ninja says:

    ++As a teacher Asim taught many students and many reciters, that’s why later scholars can compare recitation of Hafs with recitation of other students of Asim.++

    But at least you have to admit HAFS VERSION is UNRELIABLE , agree ?
    Because IMAM HAFS IS A PROVEN LIAR, ACKNOWLEDGED BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS what would you expect from a liar if not LYING ?

  50. θ says:

    “Ninja says: HAFS VERSION is UNRELIABLE”

    The particular Hafs version that was taught by Asim to all his student, including to Hafs himself, and other reciters must be reliable.

  51. θ says:

    “Ninja says: what would you expect from a liar if not LYING ?”

    What is expected of Hafs is his particular recitation that was taught by Asim, not by someone else. Hence Hafs’ version taught by Asim must be similar to a recitation by other Asim’s students,

  52. Ninja says:

    ++What is expected of Hafs++

    Yeaa, just keep wishing & hoping somehow you would get out of this mess THE MAIN POINT IS ,you don’t know for sure whatever Hafs has claimed about whatever stuff being taught from Asim is ENTIRELY true or not, since Imam Hafs IS A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR ACKNOWLEDGED BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS.

  53. θ says:

    “Ninja says: you don’t know for sure whatever”

    It is so simple. Firstly, Asim has many reciters, not only Hafs, hence we can compare their readings.
    Secondly, the Scholars * never * prove any difference between Hafs’ recitation and recitation of other Asim’s students.

  54. Ninja says:

    ++Asim has many reciters, not only Hafs+++
    Then use their version and DON’T USE HAFS, it’s just that easy

    BUT 90% MUSLIM STUPIDLY FOLLOW HAFS VERSION FROM IMAM HAFS A PROVEN
    HABITUAL LIAR BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS

  55. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Then use their version and DON’T USE HAFS, ”

    Version is different from Person.
    In terms of version, the Scholars conclude that Hafs “version” is not different from the version of other Asim’s students.
    There’s no proof for any difference between Hafs’ recitation and recitation of other Asim’s students.

  56. Ninja says:

    ++Version is different from Person++

    LOL
    If it’s the same version with other then DON’T ATTRIBUTE HIS NAME TO THE HAFS VERSION THEN .

    BUT 90% MUSLIM STUPIDLY FOLLOW HAFS VERSION FROM IMAM HAFS A PROVEN
    HABITUAL LIAR BY MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS

  57. θ says:

    “Ninja says: DON’T ATTRIBUTE HIS NAME TO THE HAFS VERSION THEN .”

    A man should be credited for having popularised it. That’s why Scholars use the term “Version”, not “Person”. It is so easy.

  58. Ninja says:

    However concerning Imam Asim here’s one other evidence from http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

    AND YOU STUPIDLY STILL WANT TO FOLLOW HAFS QURAN ? 😀

  59. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL ”

    How can Asim be identical with Abu Bakr?
    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr]

  60. Ninja says:

    Is there any other Asim bin Abu al-Najud(Bahdia) ?

    provide some evidence please..

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  61. θ says:

    ” Ninja says: Is there any other Asim bin Abu al-Najud(Bahdia) ?”

    The website you have given is ridiculous.
    How can Asim be identical with Abu Bakr?
    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr]

  62. Ninja says:

    ” Is there any other Asim bin Abu al-Najud(Bahdia) ?”

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  63. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] ”

    By the way, who invented or created a criterion of “Grade:Sadooq/Delusion” ?
    It is a new nonsense?
    Usually we just know the grade of Sahih, Hasan, Da’if,

  64. Ninja says:

    ++It is a new nonsense?+++
    I think you should not read it EMOTIONALLY

    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion]

    It means He Speak THE TRUTH but OUT OF DELUSION

    So Hafs version of Quran came from a DELUSIONAL but Honest Person (Imam Asim) and A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR (IMAM HAFS), understood ??

  65. θ says:

    “Ninja says: It means He Speak THE TRUTH but OUT OF DELUSION”

    So it is the unknown criterion from some unknown individuals.

  66. Ninja says:

    What I’m noticing, you’re just trolling with your baseless opinion without even able to give any scholarly rebutal to my evidence

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  67. θ says:

    “Ninja says: to give any scholarly rebutal ”

    A baseless grade of unknown inventor is not worthy of any valuable rebuttal.

    There’s no Maliki, no Mas’ud, no Uthman there that may have invented a very weird grade “Sadooq/Delusion.”
    So it is just a very unworthy mark of unknown criterion from some unknown individuals.

  68. θ says:

    Only a loser relies on a weak argument of baseless grade of unknown criterion from some unknown individuals.

  69. Ninja says:

    What I’m noticing, you’re just trolling with your baseless opinion without even able to give any scholarly rebutal to my evidence

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Sadooq means he is Honest but apparently he is also DELUSIONAL

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  70. Ninja says:

    Only a loser relies on a weak argument ++
    Speaking for yourself I see 🙂

  71. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Imagine this”

    Who invented that grade?

  72. Ninja says:

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Sadooq means he is Honest but apparently besides Sadooq yet he is also DELUSIONAL

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

    If u wanna ask the reliability whether it’s an official islamic site you can contact them yourself and present your whining on them

  73. θ says:

    “Ninja says: he is also DELUSIONAL”

    A weak argument with imaginary grade from imaginary individuals is not valid to make a judgement on Islam.

  74. Ninja says:

    ++A weak argument ++

    It HURTS when you’re being exposed for reading Quran from DELUSIONAL and DISHONEST people ain’t it ? 😀

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Sadooq means he is Honest but apparently besides Sadooq yet he is also DELUSIONAL

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  75. θ says:

    A weak argument with imaginary grade from imaginary individuals does not hurt Moslems with invalid nonsense on Islam.

  76. Ninja says:

    ++does not hurt ++

    DENIAL WILL ONLY SLOW DOWN YOUR EMOTIONAL HEALING

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Sadooq means he is Honest but apparently besides Sadooq yet he is also DELUSIONAL

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)

  77. Ninja says:

    WHAT AN IDIOT BELIEF FOR 90% OF MUSLIM BELIEVE UPON QURAN version of HAFS THAT’S TRANSMITTED FROM MAN WITH RETARDED MEMORY(IMAM ASIM) AND A PERSON WHO IS PROVEN AS HABITUAL LIAR(IMAM HAFS)

    IMAM ASIM although appeared to be honest(Saduq) but he is also DELUSIONAL coz out of BAD MEMORY , he often transmits wrongly without realizing he was wrong.

    http://www.muslimscholars.info/
    just type Asim bin Abu al-Najud

    11358 – ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) [Abu Bakr] Follower(Tabi’) [6th generation]
    Full Name: ‘Asim bin Abu al-Najud (Bahdla) al-Asadi
    Death Date/Place: 128 AH ()[ Natural ]
    Places of Stay: al-Kufa
    Area of Interest: Recitation/Quran, Narrator[Grade:Sadooq/Delusion] [ ع – صدوق له أوهام ]

    Aasim bin Bahdala – even if acceptable used to have INADVERTENCES DUE TO BAD MEMORY

    2)FOR IMAM HAFS where Quran version of Hafs is solely transmitted from him, IS WIDELY ADMITTED AS A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR

    AburRahman ibn Yusuf Kharash said: “He is a LIAR, abandoned (Matruk), he used to FABRICATE Hadith

    Abu ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id Ad-Darimi and others said from Yahya ibn Ma’in: “He is not trustworthy (thiqah)

    Imagine this THE TEACHER IS DELUSIONAL (Imam Asim) and the student is A PROVEN HABITUAL LIAR(Imam Hafs)and 90% of muslim idiotically follow HAFS Quran

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