A blog exchange with Muslims at bloggingtheology.net

Does Mark teach that Jesus is God?

This fascinating article is reblogged from the unitarian Christian site which is run by Dale Tuggy a Professor of Philosophy at the State University of New York, where he teaches courses in theology and philosophy of religion.Battle of the Bible Bloggers. New Testament scholar and Dean at Reformed Theological Seminary Dr. Michael Kruger says that Markdoes. But New Testament scholar Dr. James McGrath says Mark does not. Which is it?

Jesus Christ Praying

Let’s take a quick read through this gospel, trying to adopt the viewpoint, as best we can, of a first century Jew. We can’t cover everything, but let’s review some of the obviously salient episodes. Grab your New Testament and turn to Mark.

So, does Mark teach that Jesus is God?

Chapter by chapter:

  1. No, he’s the Son of God. (1) So, not God himself. God endorses him. (11) Tempted. (12) But, you can’t tempt God. Proclaims the good news from God. (14-15) He’s the messenger, not the sender, so, not God. Demon tries to blow his cover (25-6) – he’s “the Holy One of God.” The MessiahGod’s anointed one. Prays (35) – obviously, to God.
  2. Wow – he forgives sins! (5) Who but God can do that? Oh – one to whom God gives the authority to do that. (10-12)
  3. Authoritatively interprets Sabbath law. (2:23-3:6) Surely, this one is at least as great as Moses. But God himself? No – “Son of God” – demons again, trying to spill the secret before the right time. (12)
  4. “Who can this be? Even the wind and the sea obey him.” (41) Answer: the Son of God, and Messiah. (ch. 1-3)
  5. Man, these demons are helpful. “Jesus, son of the Most High God” (7) So, not the most High God, not YHWH himself, but rather, his Son. “tell them all that the Lord in his mercy has done for you”. (19) “The Lord” here would seem to be God, not Jesus; when Jesus exorcises or heals, it is by God’s power. It is truly God working through this man. “Who touched my clothes.” (30) Hmm…doesn’t seem that Jesus is faking ignorance here. (32) Doesn’t know all, so, not God – though surely, as a Prophet, he has a lot of supernatural knowledge.
  6. Yes, and as a prophet (of God – so, it would seem, not himself God), he’s rejected in his home town. (1-6) His miracle-working power is limited by their lack of faith. (5) Now this is remarkable – he gives his disciples authority – he can pass it on, it seems. (7) People wonder who he is (14-16) be we’re sure already: Son of God, prophet, Messiah, and obviously, a real man – that’s presupposed throughout. He seems to need a retreat after the murder of John the Baptist. (30-31) And to recharge through prayer. (46)
  7. The miracles in ch. 6 were as great as Moses’s. And here, Jesus authoritatively interprets the Law again. This is no ordinary prophet. (1-23)
  8. “Who do you [the disciples] say I am?” Peter: “the Christ,” the Messiah. This is the big secret about Jesus (27-30). This “son of man” has supernatural knowledge of his destiny in God’s plan. (31) He demands discipleship (34), says he’ll return “in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” That’ll be when we see “the kingdom of God come with power.” (9:1) “The Father” here is obviously, YHWH, the one true God.
  9. A miraculous endorsement of this Messiah Jesus by none other than Elijah, Moses, and God, who says this is his Son. (1-8) He calls himself the “son of man” (12, 31), which seems an obvious reference to Daniel 7:13 – to the “one like a son of man” whom God makes a supreme ruler. (Daniel 7:13-14) OK – this couldn’t be more clear: Jesus is God’s messiah, a mega-prophet, and in some unique way God’s Son, though he is also a human being. This Jesus will be killed (31-2). Whoever welcomes a child welcomes Jesus, and in doing that you welcome the one who sent Jesus. (37) Obviously, God.
  10. No one is good but God alone.” (18) Is he hinting that really, this man shouldn’t call him “good” because this man doesn’t recognize that Jesus is really God himself? In the context of this book, which has been very forthright about who Jesus is, it would seem not. The high places in his coming Kingdom are not Jesus’s to grant. (40) We are to infer that this is God’s prerogative, not Jesus’s. God does not serve us. But Jesus, this “son of man,” does. (45) And he’ll give his life – that is, die, as a ransom for us – something an essentially immortal being could not do. (45)
  11. Jesus comes, as Messiah, in the name of “the Lord,” i.e. YHWH. (9) He’s recognized now publicly as the Davidic messiah. (10) He performs prophetic actions of judgment against Israel. (12-19) “Have faith in God” (22) and forgive others when you pray to “your Father in heaven.” (25) His authority and power are from heaven – that is, from God. (27-33) This is obvious, but his enemies can’t admit it.
  12. The vineyard-owner’s “beloved son.” (6) Vineyard owner represents God, the son is Jesus. Too obvious to need spelling out. (12) Jesus, here as in many places, talks about God in the third person. (13-27) Jesus affirms, without correction or addition, the Jewish shema. (28-34) This scribe is “not far from the Kingdom” – he has yet to follow Jesus – but he’s not presented as having a fundamentally flawed theology. There is only one Lord, one God. But then, how can David, in Psalm 110:1, call the messiah his“Lord” – when that same messiah is David’s “son” (descendant)? It seems no one is brave enough to answer, but we the readers know – because Jesus is also the Son of God, and will be raised from the dead, and will be exalted to a place far above David, and all of us, by God. We’re not supposed to think that Jesus is called “Lord” because he’s God himself. God is the one who sent him, and is, his god, the one Jesus prays to.
  13. Deceivers will come in Jesus’s name, saying “I am” (6). That is, that “I am he” or “I am the one” – either that Jesus is the Christ, or that they are the Christ. Seemingly the latter (21-2)  The day and the hour “nobody knows” – not even God’s angels, or the unique Son of God, but only God. (32) If you’re still wondering whether Jesus is God himself, the answer is no – for God knows at least one thing that Jesus does not.
  14. The “son of man” enters into his predicted suffering. Jesus says grace at the Passover meal (22) and sings an appropriate hymn toGod with his disciples. (26) Not surprisingly, given what he knows is going to happen, Jesus is overcome with “terror and anguish.” (34) He does not want to die, though he wants to obey God. He asks God that he might be spared. (35-41) But evidently, God tells Jesus “No.” (42ff) Arrested, his Jewish enemies will now do their worst to him in court. Their accusation? He say, falsely, that he’s threatened to destroy the Temple, and in three days build another one “not made by human hands.” (58) “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” says Jesus, and you’ll see me coming back in power. (61-2) This, in the high priest’s eyes, is “blasphemy.” (64)
  15. Pilate wants to know if he’s “King of the Jews.” (2) Jesus doesn’t disagree – though it is false if the charge is that he’s a revolutionary bent on overthrowing Rome. They abuse this one they think is a phony “king.” (16-20) But we know he’s a real one, the Messiah who’ll sit on David’s throne. And so truly to they label him “The King of the Jews” (27) and taunt him as “the Christ, the king of Israel.” (32) On the cross, Jesus cries out to God the words of Psalm 22:1, as he feels profoundly forsaken by God. (34) He dies. Even the pagan soldier realizes that this man is a son of a god, or the Son of God. (39) Insight? Sarcasm? Either way, this Gentile is, ironically, correct. Let us note that God cannot die. But, Jesus died. So, he’s not God. And he wasn’t faking it. (40-47)
  16.  But happily: “he is risen.” (6) After appearing to some people (9-18), Jesus is taken up to heaven, were he takes his new place at the right hand of God, from where, Jesus works through his followers. (20) [Yes, 9-20 are probably not authentic. But they show us the view of Jesus which prevailed in the 2nd or 3rd c. when they were added. In any case, on the present themes, they well fit with the rest of the gospel.]


Categories: Bible, Christianity, God

13 replies

  1. “No, he’s the Son of God. (1) So, not God himself.” He offers no proof for his assertion.

    “He’s the messenger, not the sender, so, not God. ” Again no proof for his assertion.

    ” “Jesus, son of the Most High God” (7) So, not the most High God, not YHWH himself, ” Again no proof for his assertion.

    ” “The Lord” here would seem to be God, not Jesus; when Jesus exorcises or heals, it is by God’s power. It is truly God working through this man. ”

    “Would seem to be” , yes because that fits with his ideology so it is not allowed to “seem” otherwise.

    ” It seems no one is brave enough to answer, but we the readers know – because Jesus is also the Son of God, and will be raised from the dead, and will be exalted to a place far above David, and all of us, by God. ”

    And far above Mohammed too, whoever he was. Let’s not forget to mention.

    “Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

    “But, Jesus died. So, he’s not God.”

    Not so, see Revelation.

    1 v18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Like

  2. Paul (aka madmanna) are you being deliberately thick?

    you reply,
    “No, he’s the Son of God. (1) So, not God himself.” He offers no proof for his assertion.

    er so you think Jesus is his own son? lol

    you reply
    “He’s the messenger, not the sender, so, not God. ” Again no proof for his assertion.

    er so you are ignorant all the dozens of verses that say Jesus was sent by God? Come on Paul don’t pretend.

    ” “Jesus, son of the Most High God” (7) So, not the most High God, not YHWH himself, ” Again no proof for his assertion.
    lol this is the same reply you made above. And my reply to you is the same: so you think Jesus is his own son? lol

    your other replies are incomprehensible or non-existent.

    Paul, you really need to upgrade your apologetics, but I fear your new teacher & mentor Sam Shamoun has degraded your polemics.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. “but I fear your new teacher & mentor Sam Shamoun has degraded your polemics.”

    Yes Paul he has downgraded me somewhat.

    Perhaps “old teacher and mentor” would be more appropriate in the circumstances.

    Like

  4. “you reply,

    “No, he’s the Son of God. (1) So, not God himself.” He offers no proof for his assertion.

    er so you think Jesus is his own son? lol”

    No, I believe that they are the same God but different persons.

    “er so you are ignorant all the dozens of verses that say Jesus was sent by God? Come on Paul don’t pretend.”

    Perhaps this sending refers to his time as an adult when he becomes aware of the mission he has to fulfil and he is commissioned for that mission by the Father. In that case the being sent does not refer to his pre-incarnation state but would refer to that time in his adult life when he first began his ministry. This is not incompatible with his deity.

    Mark 2 v 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

    “Wow – he forgives sins! (5) Who but God can do that? Oh – one to whom God gives the authority to do that. (10-12)”

    Yes he receives authority but it is not for the right to forgive sin in and of itself but for the right to forgive sin as a man on earth. So the same authority that he exercises on the throne in heaven is extended to his mission on earth by the Father who is the Lord of the human Jesus. So there is no fundamental transfer of authority from within God to outside of God.

    ” Now this is remarkable – he gives his disciples authority – he can pass it on, it seems.”

    No, it was the power of Jesus that the disciples were calling forth when they healed and cast out devils.

    14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

    Like

  5. ” God does not serve us. But Jesus, this “son of man,” does.”

    Are you sure?

    God heals in the OT, Jesus heals in the NT. God gives food and water to the Israelites in the wilderness forty years, Jesus feeds the five thousand.

    Are they not both serving mankind?

    Like

  6. Madmanna ““No, he’s the Son of God. (1) So, not God himself.” He offers no proof for his assertion.

    er so you think Jesus is his own son? lol”

    No, I believe that they are the same God but different persons.”

    Lol. Are you a trinitarian? You believe God is one person and Jesus a different person? Or do you equate he triune being with the Father? Is the Father three-personal and Jesus a different personal?

    Is this “one God” you believe in 1 “Who” or 1 “What”?

    Like

  7. @Burhanuddin1,

    Here you go again.

    I am not giving a rigorous definition of God when I say that the Father and the Son are two different persons but the same God.

    I don’t believe that God is either tri-personal to the exclusion of his being a singular personality, nor is he a singular personality to the exclusion of his tri-personality.

    “Is this “one God” you believe in 1 “Who” or 1 “What”?”

    Please tell me first if you are 1 Who or 1 What to clarify the distinction that you are making between the Who and the What.

    Like

  8. “I am not giving a rigorous definition of God when I say that the Father and the Son are two different persons but the same God.”
    You didn’t speak about the Father.

    Yes yes your god is one “singular personality” without being one person. Yes yes. 1 Who and 3 Who’s. But that’s no contradiction. no no.

    Seems like that’s not the god of James White

    “The one what is the one Being or essence of God; the three who’s are the Father, Son, and Spirit. We dare not mix up the what’s and who’s regarding the Trinity. (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 27).”

    Like

  9. madmanna

    You said;
    @Burhanuddin1,

    Here you go again.

    I am not giving a rigorous definition of God when I say that the Father and the Son are two different persons but the same God.

    I don’t believe that God is either tri-personal to the exclusion of his being a singular personality, nor is he a singular personality to the exclusion of his tri-personality.

    “Is this “one God” you believe in 1 “Who” or 1 “What”?”

    Please tell me first if you are 1 Who or 1 What to clarify the distinction that you are making between the Who and the What.

    I say;

    First of all watch and see how 3 Persons/persons 1 God cannot identify “Who” or “What” Jesus is. You cannot be worshiping that is not a man or God madmanna.

    Consider this carefully. We are just reasoning to see which is the true religion Islam or Christianity because God cannot force us to accept what is not possible before He save us.

    Consider

    In the beginning there is a Word(God) and the Word(God) is with God. God is with another God so 2 Gods here, and is clearly against the Bible because the Bible clearly said in many, many places that God is Only, One and Alone. No Son, No Daughter, No One besides Him. Islam wins and Christianity or Trinitarians at least lose. They lose big time and have to come back to Islam or at least convert to Unitarian Christians or Jehovah Witness. It is better for them.

    Let me substitute the Word with Person/person

    to be continued…………………

    Like

  10. madmanna

    …………..continued

    Now Let us substitute Person/person in John 1:1

    In the begging there is Word(Person) and the Word(Person) is with God(Person). Christians like Ken Temple will say it is talking about Persons here. So if Jesus is the Word he is Person but not God.

    Why are you worshiping Jesus who is a Person but not God in this verse? and calling Jesus God which in fact he is not according the verse and substitution of Person as Trinitarians will like us to accept.

    Moreover, a Person/person is always a “Being” . I have never seen a Person who is not a “Being”. I cannot perceive a Person who is not a “Being”. Every Person/person is a “Being” by himself. I challenge any Christian philosopher to explain to me why a Person/person is not a “Being. It is not possible for a Person/person to be not “Being”. I wish Dr. James White is reading this blog to help and explain to me why a Person/person is not a “Being” by himself.

    Christians please, I need an explanation why a Person/person by his own or by himself is not a “Being”

    If you cannot prove to me that a Person/person by himself alone is not a “Being”, then Jesus as a Person/person is a Being and so are the other 2 Persons in Trinity and they compose of 3 Beings.

    The Bible said in numerous occasions and clearly and unequivocally that God is One, Only and Alone. If we believe the Bible and not some councils set up by Christians, then God is Only, One, and Alone Divine Being but not Trinity or 3 Divine Beings or combination of human and Divine beings.

    Thanks

    Like

  11. @intellect,

    I believe the three persons of the one God are one person and the one person of the one God is three persons. Or if you want to call them three beings the same applies. The unity is no less a unity because it exists within a plurality or vice versa. There are no degrees of unity. One is one. It can’t be partially one or 50 percent one and 50 percent not one.

    I am arguing from the revelation of the bible, you are arguing from the revelation of the koran.

    ” Only and Alone.” Yes, but in what sense only and alone. I believe he is the only true God, only and alone. He is the only Lord, only and alone. So where do I differ from you?

    Thanks.

    Like

  12. madmanna

    Find below what your scripture said about how God Himself clearly and unequivocally described Himself and I believe that. It did not mention about 3, 3 in 1, hypostasis, Persons/persons, 3 Persons/persons of the one God are one person etc. as you claim. I am arguing from the revelation of the Bible madmanna with proof below. Now Give me proof in the Bible were it said He is;

    1 in 3 Persons/persons
    He is Trinity
    He is 3 Persons/persons of the one God are one person of the one God is three Persons/persons.
    Hypostasis, Essence etc.

    You clearly are not following this clear statements in the Bible that says God is One, Only and Alone. Without any Person/persons. Hypostasis, 3 in 1, Trinity in it.

    The Holy Bible clearly states that God is One and Alone and Only, but not with anyone.

    “You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
    “there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    .”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    “Before Me there was no God formed, And there “will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
    “You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
    “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

    Because Jesus Christ is a being(i.e. human or divine being), it will be impossible for the “word” to be him with God because God’s “being” is Only One as Mr. Croft admitted to.

    madmanna, language is a medium of communication and it has its definition which are standard to anyone. You cannot change to rule or standard for your own whims and caprice.

    noun

    noun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person

    1. a human being regarded as an individual.
    “the porter was the last person to see her”

    synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature

    Source of dictionary
    https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=-HzNVff7PIKN8QeJ-r7ICQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+person

    My dear friend madmanna.

    The Bible clearly said God is One, Only and Alone as can be read above. So this is exactly what you said you believe ” three persons of the one God are one person and the one person of the one God is three persons”

    Where in the Bible or scripture does it say that? But you can see clearly above that God is One, Only and Alone. The reason it is so clear and unequivocal and in so many places is that if you read it, knowing it is from God and reject it and follow what you created which is not in the scripture and unintelligible the hell fire awaits you.

    I did bring my proof from the Bible and not Quran, and so it is disingenuous to say I am from the revelation of the Quran and you are arguing from the revelation of the Bible. I am indeed arguing from the revelation of the Bible and you are arguing from no revelation but your personal desire and what you create. The phrase and the sentence you created are unintelligible to be honest.

    The truth is that the Bible said God is

    One

    and we know God is a being

    and God is divine so God is Only One divine being and he is alone.

    You madmanna said you believe God is 3 beings or persons but 1 God.

    So you have 3 Divine beings as 1 God. But 1 Divine Being is God. Not so? Do you agree or not? or 1 Divine being is not God? So you are worshiping 3 divine beings which is polytheism and or idolatry.

    You do not worship 1 being but 3 beings, so it is polytheism and or idolatry.

    You can explain to me why it is not idolatry and or polytheism to worship 3 beings.

    3 beings are not only and 1 and alone. The Bible did not say God is a collection of beings.

    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

    Jesus never said he is Yahweh, so apart from Yahweh no one is God.

    If you have 3 beings there is someone else and it is against the Bible.

    “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
    “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
    “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

    The above verses is One, Only and Alone Person/Being speaking not 3 Persons/Beings which is no where in the Bible. I mean 3 Beings/Persons God.

    Thanks.

    Like

  13. madmanna

    You believe 3 beings are God.

    Beings can be human, divine, angelic, Satanic.

    human beings and angelic beings and Satanic are not God.

    The beings other than God are not one like God but many. So they can be 3 or in collection but Bible said God is One, so He cannot be many or collection of beings or divine beings.

    Divine being is God.

    The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone

    Since your being is divine then He can only be 1

    You said you believe He is 3 beings i.e. 3 Divine beings means 3 Gods and it is polytheism according to Bible.

    Thanks

    @ intellect,

    who said “You said you believe He is 3 beings i.e. 3 Divine beings means 3 Gods and it is polytheism according to Bible.”

    But I said that the three beings are one being:

    “I believe the three persons of the one God are one person and the one person of the one God is three persons. Or if you want to call them three beings the same applies.”

    One being, one God. That is monotheism.

    You said : “The truth is that the Bible said God is

    One

    and we know God is a being

    and God is divine so God is Only One divine being and he is alone.”

    Men, angels and Allah all subsist in their own individual beings. As you have stated here.

    Men and angels are like Allah in this respect.

    But this cannot be true according to the Koran, your own holy book. So you must have a false belief.

    [42.11] The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing is a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

8 Responses to A blog exchange with Muslims at bloggingtheology.net

  1. Anonymous says:

    Prototokos.
    The Word is attribute of God in the beginning. The “Firstborn” (Prototokos) walks in Eden – he is not a human though, but Michael – and talks with the 1st man Adam.

    What is Prototokos?
    Prototokos is the Firstborn of every creature, he is not the 1st human but he is indeed made and born of the “image” of the invisible God – just like Adam – hence he is “like” God, that is Michael.

    Prototokos is one of the Agents of creation (alongside the Wisdom and the Spirit) through whom everything else is made. They exist before the world began. But none of three known Agents is given the attribution of divinity.

    Jews get angry when they hear Jesus tries to introduce himself as Prototokos.

  2. madmanna says:

    “Prototokos.
    The Word is attribute of God in the beginning. The “Firstborn” (Prototokos) walks in Eden – he is not a human though, but Michael – and talks with the 1st man Adam.”

    This is not what my bible says.

    Angels do not have the power to create anon. Stop deluding yourself.

    Stop believing in secret agents 007. This is so silly to believe in things like this.

  3. Anonymous says:

    Maybe the word “Vessel” is more understandable.
    Angels have unnatural creative power though.
    (i) Angel gives Hagar a promise to multiple Ishmael’s seeds.
    (ii) Angel opens the eyes of Balaam.
    (iii) Angel gives ability to speak to the ass.
    (iv) Angel has ability to redeem the sin of Jacob.
    (v) Angel (cherub) atones the sins of Isaiah.
    (vi) Satan – a fallen angel – sends down fire from Heaven (just like God does on Elijah’s request), to heal the wounded who see the image of the beast (just like the brasen serpent made by Moses), and to animate the image.
    Rev 13
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    Moreover the Wisdom (one of the Vessels of creation) creates her house and its pillars. The Spirit shall give the resurrection to two slain Witnesses.
    Prov 9
    1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars 11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.
    Rev 11
    11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  4. Anonymous says:

    Additional comment:
    (vii) Gabriel the angel healed the barren womb of Elizabeth.

  5. madmanna says:

    Anon, you obviously belong to an angel worshipping cult. You are an angel worshipper.

    Why don’t you just admit you are a JW and have done with it.

    Don’t get mixed up with the Angel of the Lord who is Jehovah. A theophany of the Son in the OT.

    You have a cacophony of angels. You don’t know which is which.

  6. Anonymous says:

    JWs refuse to be associated with the angel cults. Humans and angels are equal in the sight of God. Humans shall judge the wicked angels. Angels will judge the wicked humans. JWs are just the humble monotheist who reads the Bible with more consistent, more comprehensive and more detailed belief. Let’s prove that against the Trinity.
    Trinitarians are the Son-centrist. JWs are Jah-centrist. For JWs, Jesus is the Prototokos; the Firstborn, who is born of the “image” of the invisible God, just the same with image that formed Adam, but the Prototokos is not the 1st human – he is Michael – just being like God.

    Theophany is not including Gabriel the angel and the group of Cherubim that have power to heal the sick womb of Elisabeth and atone the sins of Isaiah.

  7. madmanna says:

    Rev 13
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    This power was given to him. It was not his by nature. Only God can give this power. He also exercises this power in the creature.

    5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    The beasts are given power but God is working this power through them.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Your argument is absolutely erroneous, but maybe it is explaining the weakness of Agency or Vessel of creation.
    Two beasts are given power by the Dragon himself, not by God. It is Satan himself working through them, not God. Why should God give any great power to the Dragon that Michael casts out in the battle? That’s not making sense at all.
    God is not involved in the war of Heaven, persecution, wickedness and idolatry that is imposed by the beasts and Dragon upon all men.

    The Agents of creation are not just a silent medium. Jesus speaks directly to Paul. They are given emotions, even Jesus receives glory as a joint-recipient of honor (Doxology), that is everything is for him, including Evilness, but he can’t do anytime to personally interfere and persuade the sinners except a few people, such as Paul.

    Vessels of creation become the joint-recipients of glory alongside God from everything, including Evilness, but their mediation power is “powerless enough” to interfere the sin or to persuade God.

    Had the Son been given enough willpower to come “soon” as promised, the forces of Evil would not have accumulated and grown up to the cataclysmic level with so many lying wonders.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s