A Critical Look at the New World Translation of the Bible, a post by Sam Shamoun

A Critical Look at the New World Translation

Anyone that has spent some time carefully reading through the New World Translation (NWT) of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs) soon discovers the gross perversion and mistranslation of key texts that have to do with essential Christian teachings which the Society denies. These include doctrines such as the Trinity, the Deity and humanity of Christ (i.e., the Hypostatic Union), the Holy Spirit’s divine Personality, salvation by grace through faith alone, humans possessing immaterial souls/spirits that continue to consciously exist after physical death, everlasting conscious torment etc.

In this article we are going to look at the way the Society has chosen to render specific verses concerning the Godhead and contrast that with the Authorized King James Version (AV) of the Holy Bible for the most part. This will then help the readers see the deliberate mishandling of God’s Word for the express purpose of keeping people from discovering the true identity of Jehovah God. We will add some brief comments when we deem it necessary. However, in most instances the mistranslations are so clear and obvious that there really is no need for us to provide additional commentary.

Authorized Version

2013 Revised Edition of the NWT (http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/)

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Zechariah 12:10

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to THE ONE whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.”

Instead of Jehovah being pierced, which would make this a clear OT reference to the Deity of Christ, the Society chose to go with the reading “the One,” thereby differentiating Jehovah from the individual that ends being pierced through. It is obvious why they chose this reading over the other better attested one. The Society obviously didn’t want their members to discover Jesus’ true identity as Jehovah God in the flesh.

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah,
though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2

And you, O Bethle·hem Ephra·thah, The one too little to be among the thousands of Judah, From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel, Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.”

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him… And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also… And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.” Matthew 2:1-2, 8, 11

After Jesus had been born in Bethle·hem of Ju·dea in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem, saying: ‘Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.’… When sending them to Bethle·hem, he said: ‘Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found him, report back to me so that I too may go and do obeisance to him.’… And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh.”

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33

Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: ‘You really are God’s Son.’

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped himAnd when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.” Matthew 28:9, 17

And look! Jesus met them and said: ‘Good day!’ They approached and took hold of his feet and did obeisance to him… When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted.”

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:” Luke 24:51-52

As he was blessing them, he was parted from them and taken up to heaven. And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord (Kyrie), that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord (Kyrie), I believe. And he worshipped him.” John 9: 35-38

Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and on finding him, he said: ‘Are you putting faith in the Son of man?’ The man answered: ‘And who is he, SIR, so that I may put faith in him?’ Jesus said to him: ‘You have seen him, and in fact, he is the one speaking with you.’ He said: ‘I do put faith in him, Lord.’ And he did obeisance to him.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.” Acts 20:28

Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.”

In this rendering, God didn’t purchase the church with his own blood, but rather with the blood of his own Son.

whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” Romans 9:5

To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.”

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:5-11

Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every OTHER name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The NWT makes it seem as if Jesus wasn’t equal to God and didn’t try to be. It even goes as far as to insert the word “other” so as to avoid admitting that this passage affirms that Jesus also bears the divine name Jehovah, since that is the name which is above every name (cf. Psalm 138:2; 148:13).

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him: and he is before ALL THINGS, and by him ALL THINGS consist.” Colossians 1:15-17

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all OTHER things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All OTHER things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all OTHER things, and by means of him all OTHER things were made to exist,

The NWT has again inserted the word “other” no less than four times here, in an obvious attempt to obscure the fact that the text explicitly affirms that Christ is uncreated since all creation is said to have been created by and for him, and that he already existed even before the entire creation came into being.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16

Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘HE was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’”

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (ho Theos), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Hebrews 1:6-8

But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.’ Also, he says about the angels: ‘He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But about the Son, he says: ‘God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.’”

Not only does the NWT obscure the fact that God himself commands all his angels to worship his Firstborn, it also makes sure to undermine the Father’s explicit testimony to his beloved Son being the God who reigns forever.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.” 1 Peter 1:10-12

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.”

The words “of Christ” are omitted in order to hide Jesus’ identity as Jehovah since it was Jehovah’s Spirit that inspired the OT prophets to prophesy of Christ’s coming. Therefore, Christ must be Jehovah in order for the Holy Spirit to be his Spirit.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14

So God said to Moses: ‘I Will Become What I Choose to Become.’ And he added: ‘This is what you are to say to the Israelites, “I Will Become has sent me to you.”’”

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (ego eimi), ye shall die in your sins… Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi). Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” John 8:23-24, 56-59

“‘You are from this world; I am not from this world.  That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins…  Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.’ Then the Jews said to him: ‘You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

The Society has chosen to translate Jesus’ ego eimi statements in such a way so as to avoid any connection with Exodus 3:14, which they have also rendered much differently from most standard English versions of the Holy Bible. The Society realized that translating the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 and the statements in John as “I AM” would have led JWs to assume that Jesus was basically identifying himself as Jehovah in the flesh. They obviously didn’t want the members to make any such identification between Jehovah and Jesus, explaining their unique and unusual renderings.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is THE MIND of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.” Romans 8:27

But the one who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in harmony with God for the holy ones.”

Here the NWT changes “mind” to “meaning” since it doesn’t want the reader to know that the Holy Bible identifies the Holy Spirit as a divine Person, and not simply Jehovah’s active force.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (tou megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon Christou ‘Iesou), who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” Titus 2:13-14 New King James Version (NKJV)*

while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,  who gave himself for us to set us free from every sort of lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people who are his own special possession, zealous for fine works.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (tou Theou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou):” 2 Peter 1:1 NKJV*

Simon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have acquired a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ:

* In 1798 a Christian abolitionist and philanthropist named Granville Sharp wrote a monograph concerning the way the Greek definite article functions, specifically in regards to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. His exhaustive examination of the Greek NT and other related literature led him to discover six rules, the first of which stated that when two singular personal nouns that are not proper names are connected together by the Greek conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article preceding only the first noun, then both nouns are describing or referring to the same individual. This is precisely what we find in the passages from Titus and 2 Peter, namely, two singular personal nouns connected by the conjunction kai, with the definite article appearing only before the first noun. And as far as the NT is concerned, there is not a single exception to this first rule. Therefore, this makes it all the more certain that both passages are explicitly identifying the Lord Jesus as our God, in fact our great God, which is an epithet commonly applied to Jehovah throughout the OT, especially in the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible commonly referred to as the Septuagint [LXX]!

And Esdras blessed the Lord, the great God: and all the people answered, and said, Amen, lifting up their hands: and they bowed down and worshipped the Lord with their face to the ground.” Nehemiah 8:6 LXX

For you are great, and perform wonders: you are the only [and] the great God.” Psalm 85[Heb. 86]:10 LXX

“…the great God has made known to the king what must happen hereafter: and the dream is true, and the interpretation thereof sure.” Daniel 2:45 LXX

And I prayed to the Lord my God, and confessed, and said, O Lord, the great God and wonderful, keeping your covenant and your mercy to them that love you, and to them that keep your commandments; we have sinned,” Daniel 9:4 LXX

In fact, there are four additional Granville Sharp constructions in 2 Peter that are related to the Person of Christ, all of which the NWT renders correctly:

In fact, in this way you will be richly granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (tou Kyriou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou).” 2 Peter 1:11

Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (tou Kyriou kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou), they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first.” 2 Peter 2:20

that you should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior (tou Kyriou kai Soteros) through your apostles… No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (tou Kyriou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou). To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:2, 18

Now compare the Greek of v. 1 with that of v. 11:

1. tou Theou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou (“the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ”).

11. tou Kyriou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou (“the Lord of us and Savior Jesus Christ”).

As the readers can see, the only difference between the two texts is that v. 1 uses the word Theou (“God”) instead of Kyriou (“Lord”).

What this shows is that the Society was fully aware of this rule since they correctly translated texts which followed this specific Greek construction, except in places where the word “God” happened to be applied to Jesus!

This proves malicious intent on the part of the NWT translators to hide and/or obscure the Biblical teaching concerning the Trinity from its readers. And in some cases it isn’t even about mistranslating, but rather of deliberately adding words which are not present in any manuscript (i.e., inserting “other” in places such as Philippians 2:9 and Colossians 1:16-18), or of omitting terms and expressions which are there in the very manuscripts which they themselves use to translate from (e.g., omitting the phrase “of Christ” from 1 Peter 1:11)!

Sadly, this highlights the Society’s pattern of deliberately mistranslating problematic passages, which then leads them to find some scholarly backing to justify this malicious perversion of the God-breathed Scriptures. In other words, it is not the biblical languages or the views of scholars that causes the Society to render certain texts in an unusual and/or misleading fashion. Rather, it is their theological assumptions, such as their belief that the Trinity is a false teaching of the church, which forces them to mistranslate and/or add/omit words from the Holy Bible.

What this means is that the Society has unfortunately chosen to read their views back into the Holy Bible, as opposed to allowing the God-breathed Scriptures inform them as to what they should and should not believe.

As far as the translators of the AV are concerned, they were not aware of this Greek rule seeing that it had only been discovered and commented on in AD 1798, nearly two hundred years after the AV had been translated. This explains why the AV translators rendered these verses in a manner which seems to suggest that there are actually two divine Persons in view, namely God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1

Unlike the NWT translators, these men weren’t trying to obscure the Deity of Christ since they were committed Trinitarians who loved and adored the Triune Godhead. Since the translators were mostly dependent upon the Latin version of the Scriptures to carry them through, and since Latin doesn’t have the article, they would not have been as nearly aware of the significance and importance that the Greek article had in how to properly render these two verses.

For a more thorough discussion on Sharp’s first rule and the impact it has on properly translating and understanding Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, we highly recommend the following articles:

James R. White, Granville Sharp’s Rule: Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1: http://vintage.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html

Robert M. Bowman, Jr., Sharp’s Rule and Antitrinitarian Theologies: http://digilander.libero.it/domingo7/SharpsRule.pdf

Daniel B. Wallace, Sharp Redivivus? – A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule: https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule

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55 Responses to A Critical Look at the New World Translation of the Bible, a post by Sam Shamoun

  1. willjkinney says:

    Hi madmanna. Good post about the JW “bible” version, but I did want to make some comments. If people here read nothing else, please read my defense of Titus 2:13 in the KJB (which you went with the NKJV on). The KJB is absolutely correct and James White is wrong in his ignorant criticism. The NKJV changes the word order of the Greek text and the meaning of the passage.

    Titus 2:13 “looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”

    James White and his criticism of Titus 2:13 in the King James Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/jameswhitetitus213.htm

  2. willjkinney says:

    Hi saints. Many of the verses in the JW bible are the same as in the other Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB. They are all based on the same UBS/Nestle-Aland/Vatican Critical Greek text.

    For example Micah 5:2 – where the JW version has “whose ORIGIN is from long ago”
    Instead of “whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.”

    The NIV, and Dan Wallace’s NET, Holman Standard, RSV, modern Catholic versions and some ESVs (depending on which edition) do the same thing. See

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/micah52heb211origin.htm

  3. willjkinney says:

    The Alleged Grandville Sharp “rule” is pure Baloney, Sam. Not even Dan Wallace agrees with this “imagination gone to seed theory”.

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/granvillesharprule.htm

  4. willjkinney says:

    Hi all. You will also notice the textual similarity of the JW version with the other Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET in 1 Timothy 3:16 vs. the true Bible’s “GOD was manifest in the flesh”.

    See 1 Timothy 3:16 “GOD was manifest in the flesh” or the Vatican Versions’ “He”?

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

  5. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will,

    I just read your short article on Sharp’s rule and Wallace’s discussion of it, and you say the following:

    “… Sharp also does not translate the Greek word order correctly in 2 Timothy 4:1 or Titus 2:13 or Jude 4. ”

    Now this really took me by surprise since the same argument is easily leveled against the Authorized Version:

    “looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon Christou ‘Iesou);” Titus 2:13

    As you can see from the word order of the Greek text, the verse doesn’t say “and our Savior Jesus Christ,” but rather “and our Savior CHRIST JESUS.” Therefore, per your own argument the NASB is much more accurate at this point since it perfectly captures the Greek word order:

    “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”

  6. Sam Shamoun says:

    BTW Will, you grossly misrepresent Wallace since he completely accepts and perfectly agrees with Sharp’s first rule. He simply doesn’t agree with all of Sharp’s examples since, as Wallace correctly noted, some of the texts that Sharp invoked included compound proper names and therefore do not fit in with the parameters of his own stated definition of his first rule concerning article-noun-kai-noun constructions.

  7. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will, in your article on James White and Titus 2:13 you make the following claim:

    “The Greek in all texts reads “the great God and OUR Saviour.” This is one of the few verses in the N.T. that has no textual variants; they all read the same and the King James Bible is the most literal by far. All Greek text read -προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου.”

    This again highlights your gross inconsistency since the AV takes the word “our” in 2 Peter 1:1 and places it somewhere else:

    ““Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and OUR Saviour Jesus Christ (tou Theou HEMON kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou):” 2 Peter 1:11

    The Greek literally reads, “the God OF US (hemon) and Savior Jesus Christ,” and yet the AV has taken the possessive plural pronoun and place it before the word Savior!

    Therefore, are you going to come clean and be consistent and condemn the AV for being less literal than the other versions such as the NKJV, NIV, NASB etc.? You are going to have to in light of your assertion concerning Titus 2:13.

  8. Sam Shamoun says:

    Another point Will. You complain against the reading “and appearing of the glory…” and prefer instead “and the glorious appearing,” without bother mentioning the fact that the Greek literally reads “and appearing of glory…” Here is your own Greek quote to back it up: και επιφανειαν της δοξης

    As you can see the word for “appearing” (επιφανειαν) precedes the words “the glory” (της δοξης). So if we go by word order then the versions which read “and appearing of the glory…” are more correct.

    However, the reason why some versions along with the AV render the phrase “glorious appearing” is because they take the words της δοξης (“the glory”) as an adjective modifying the word επιφανειαν (“appearing”). So it isn’t as simple as you make it out to be. Therefore, you need to either revamp your article to address these points or, better yet, you need to simply drop this point altogether since such an argument only provides further documentation for your inconsistency.

  9. Sam Shamoun says:

    BTW, I just saw that your citation of the Greek got the word order wrong. You posted the following, both here and in your article: της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου.

    However, the Greek actually reads this way: της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/2-13.htm).

    You placed the word ιησου before χριστου, which gives us “Jesus Christ,” when the Greek actually reads χριστου ιησου, i.e., “Christ Jesus.” So why did you switch the word order around? Was it because you wanted to hide the fact that the AV which also switches the order of the words?

  10. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam. Brother, you are wrong. Did you actually READ my article on this verse?

    The main thing James White objects to is he thinks the KJB reading shows two different people being referred to and that it doesn’t bear witness to the deity of Christ, and he is wrong.

    It most certainly does and that very strongly. He is BOTH the Great God of everybody at His appearing and He is OUR Saviour.

    As for nouns not being used as adjectives, are you sure you want to go with that theory? Tell me the name of your best English version, and I will show you differently. Want to try it?

    Your Vatican Versions like the ESV, (NIV, NASB, NET) are not the infallible words of God by a long shot and nobody, not even you, believes they are.

  11. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will, I read it and the fact is White is correct in that the AV is less clear on the fact that the Greek only has one Person in view. You choose to see only one divine Person, not because of the clarity of the translation, but because of your commitment to the AV.

    And thank you for showing that you don’t understand the issues that you are dealing with, and for proving that you are only good at twisting people’s words. I challenge you to show me where I said THAT NOUNS CANNOT BE USED AS ADJECTIVES. You won’t be able to do so since I never denied that nouns in the Greek NT can function as adjectives. So shame on you for perverting my words in order to attack straw man since this only proves that you cannot deal with the real issues, obviously because you do not have the capacity to do so.

  12. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam. Sir, I did NOT place Jesus before Christ. What is going on here is that you are looking at the Vatican’s Critical text, which is different. The Traditional Reformation text says –
    13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου = the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Your Westcott-Hort, UBS,Vatican text is different – it says – 13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

    See the difference at the end there?

  13. willjkinney says:

    Sam, this is what you said about “the glorious appearing” versus “the appearing of his glory”

    Sam says: “As you can see the word for “appearing” (επιφανειαν) precedes the words “the glory” (της δοξης). So if we go by word order then the versions which read “and appearing of the glory…” are more correct.

    However, the reason why some versions along with the AV render the phrase “glorious appearing” is because they take the words της δοξης (“the glory”) as an adjective modifying the word επιφανειαν (“appearing”). So it isn’t as simple as you make it out to be. Therefore, you need to either revamp your article to address these points or, better yet, you need to simply drop this point altogether since such an argument only provides further documentation for your inconsistency.”

    Sam, is it wrong to use a Greek noun in conjunction with another noun and translated it as an adjective? Yes or No?

  14. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam. Let me go ahead and help you out with this.

    “Sam, is it wrong to use a Greek noun in conjunction with another noun and translated it as an adjective? Yes or No? ”

    The fact is, even in his modern Vatican versions they do the same thing with the same word “glory” (της δοξης) and make it an adjective when connected to the main noun in a phrase.

    For example, the ESV does this both in Philippians 3:21 – “to be like his GLORIOUS body” (συμμορφον τω σωματι της δοξης αυτου) and in Colossians 1:11 – “according to his GLORIOUS might” (κατα το κρατος της δοξης αυτου).

    The NASB does this same thing with the same word in Colossians 1:11 and in 1 Timothy 1:11 “according to the GLORIOUS gospel” (κατα το ευαγγελιον της δοξης) and the NIV does the same in 2 Corinthians 3:8 “the ministration of the Spirit be even more GLORIOUS” (διακονια του πνευματος εσται εν δοξη), in Philippians 3:21 “his glorious body” and in Colossians 1:11 “his glorious might”.

    While the NKJV does the same thing with the same word in Romans 8:21 – “the GLORIOUS liberty of the children of God” (την ελευθεριαν της δοξης των τεκνων του θεου), 2 Corinthians 3 verses 7, 8 and 11 (twice) – “ministry was GLORIOUS”, Philippians 3:21 “his GLORIOUS body”, Colossians 1:11 “His GLORIOUS power”, and 1 Timothy 1:11 “the GLORIOUS gospel” for a total of 8 times.

    Yes, Sam, I am defending the King James Bible as the only complete and inerrant Bible. And what are you defending? The FACT that you do NOT believe that ANY Bible in ANY language is or ever was the complete and inerrant words of God, right? That is probably the biggest difference between us. I believe God really did give us an infallible Bible and you do not.

    Now, if you think I am wrong, judgmental, unkind, unloving and un-Christian for pointing this out to you and everybody else, then clear your good name and set the record straight for us. Can you SHOW us a copy of what you honestly believe is the complete and inerrant Bible? Yes or No?

    Thank you.

  15. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will, I just got back to see you again humiliating yourself by exposing yourself as a liar who shamefully perverts and twists people’s words since that is all you can do to defend your lies and idolatry. Shame on you for masquerading as a Christian. Anyway, time to expose you for the liar and charlatan you are. Check out the next posts.

  16. madmanna says:

    Hi Will,

    Just to clarify. I am not the author of this post. Sam is the author. Sometimes I post my own stuff. Sometimes I post stuff for Sam.

    God bless.

    Madmanna

  17. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will,

    Because you are a deceiver you only quote this section of mine,

    As you can see the word for “appearing” (επιφανειαν) precedes the words “the glory” (της δοξης). So if we go by word order then the versions which read “and appearing of the glory…” are more correct.

    But conveniently omit what I wrote IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS:

    However, the reason why SOME VERSIONS along with the AV render the phrase “glorious appearing” IS BECAUSE THEY TAKE THE WORDS της δοξης (“the glory”) AS AN ADJECTIVE modifying the word επιφανειαν (“appearing”). SO IT ISN’T AS SIMPLE AS YOU MAKE IT OUT TO BE. Therefore, you need to either revamp your article to address these points or, better yet, you need to simply drop this point altogether since such an argument only provides further documentation for your inconsistency.

    I clearly acknowledged that some view the noun as an adjective here, which is why I said your rather inept assault against the modern versions isn’t as simple you make it out to be. So you need to stop with the red herrings and straw man arguments since you are only embarrassing yourself by using such cheap debate tactics. You would make a good Muhammadan.

    Therefore, shame on you for using such deception to defend your idolatry. And also shame on you for again appealing to modern versions to defend your idolatry WHEN THESE ARE THE VERY VERSIONS YOU ARE CONSTANTLY CONDEMNING AS VATICAN PERVERSIONS! You see just how repulsive and deceptive you come off? You have no shame in citing so-called Vatican perversions whenever it helps your case, but then cry foul and condemn anyone who uses any of these modern versions to show why the AV is inferior.

    More to come in the next post.

  18. Sam Shamoun says:

    More for Will.

    Now let me call your bluff and show everyone that you have no business addressing these topics since you lack the intellectual capacity and integrity to do so. Please make an exegetical defense for why you believe tes doxes (“the glory”) should be taken as an adjective modifying epiphaneian (“appearing”). in Titus 2:13. Appealing to the AV won’t cut it, nor will appealing to the fact that it isn’t God’s glory that will appear help your case either. The Holy Bible is quite clear that Christ’s coming will manifest or bring about the appearing of the glory of God:

    “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come IN HIS OWN GLORY, AND IN HIS FATHER’S, AND OF THE HOLY ANGELS. ” Luke 9:26

    Here Jesus himself says in Luke that he shall be coming in his own glory as well as the glory of the Father and his angels. Therefore, his coming entails the appearing/manifestation of the glory of God, contrary to the silly argument you used in your article.

    In fact, this citation of Luke proves all the more devastating to your position when we keep in mind that Luke was with Paul when he wrote the Pastoral Epistles, e.g., 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus,

    “ONLY LUKE IS WITH ME. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. ” 2 Timothy 4:11

    Paul even quotes Luke 10:7 in 1 Timothy 5:18!

    “For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, THE LABOURER IS WORTHY OF HIS REWARD.” 1 Timothy 5:18

    Now compare this to what Luke wrote:

    “And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: FOR THE LABOURER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE. Go not from house to house.” Luke 10:7

    And since Paul also mentions Mark, let us what the latter wrote concerning Jesus’ coming in glory:

    “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with the holy angels.” Mark 8:38

    So Mark, in complete agreement with Luke, says Jesus the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father. This strongly indicates that tes doxes in Titus 2:13 should be treated as a noun since Paul would be fully aware of and also in perfect agreement with the words of his Master as recorded by his young protege in Luke 9:26 that Christ’s coming brings about the manifestation of the glory of God, specifically of the Father and Son, as well as that of the angels.

    In light of this, all I can say to you is OUCH!

    Now let us see how well you know your Bible and if indeed you are capable of doing serious, meaningful exegesis. I won’t be holding my breath.

  19. Sam Shamoun says:

    One correction. I overlooked the fact that Will did quote the paragraph where I acknowledge the fact tes doxes can be rendered adjectivally, which makes his misrepresentation of my point all the more reprehensible. This means all the examples he gave showing how a noun such as doxes can function and be treated as an adjective are nothing more than a red herring and straw man argumentation SINCE I NEVER DENIED THAT THEY COULD BE!

    Now that we got Will’s smokescreens out of the way, perhaps he will be so kind as to actually defend and prove his position that tes doxes in Titus 2:13 should be translated as an adjective modifying epiphaneian.

  20. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will,

    You write:

    BEGIN
    Hi Sam. Sir, I did NOT place Jesus before Christ. What is going on here is that you are looking at the Vatican’s Critical text, which is different. The Traditional Reformation text says –
    13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου = the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Your Westcott-Hort, UBS,Vatican text is different – it says – 13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

    See the difference at the end there?
    END

    It is rather unfortunate that you simply can’t see how you are actually refuting yourself, even though you think you are actually proving your case.

    It makes absolute sense that a scribe or scribes would change the less than familiar word arrangement “Christ Jesus” to the more common “Jesus Christ,” but it doesn’t make any sense for a scribe or scribes to to do the reverse. Therefore, could be so kind as to explain to me why a scribe or scribes would want to change the normal word order “Jesus Christ” around to “Christ Jesus”?

    Thanks for helping to prove that your AV is far from perfect , even though you deceive yourself into thinking that it actually is.

  21. Sam Shamoun says:

    BTW Will, make sure you provide a link to our discussion here in your paper on James White and Titus 2:13 where you mention some of my points but fail to cite all my replies to your pathetic claims. At least this will prove that you are not a coward and are man enough to let others see these exchanges for themselves so they can determine how well you do when someone nails you on your ineptness and dishonesty.

  22. willjkinney says:

    Sam, the bible agnostic, Shamoun posts: “Shame on you for masquerading as a Christian. Anyway, time to expose you for the liar and charlatan you are.”

    Hi Sam. You get so overblown emotional and nasty when you are challenged about your basic unbelief in the inerrancy of ANY Bible, don’t you. Yes, indeedy, those KJB only folks are nasty and mean spirited, but all you Bible agnostics are sweetness and light, right, Sam?

    It is a simple FACT that you do not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS or ever WAS the complete, inspired and infallible words of God. And because I point this out to people, you really get upset about it and call into serious question whether I could possibly even be a Christian because I do such a thing.

    If I am wrong about this fundamental fact of where you are coming from on the Bible version issue, then simply clear it up and set the record straight. SHOW us a copy of this infallible Bible you seem to want us all to think you actually believe in. Will you do that for us, Sam?

    Now, to the issue of Titus 2:13. According to your fake bible versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, and even the NKJV which read – “waiting for our blessed hope, THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD (NO Greek text reads this way) AND Savior Jesus Christ” (ESV 2001 edition).

    Here you are looking for the glory of God and Saviour Jesus Christ. All you are looking for is the glory of God. It doesn’t say His actual Person. I guess your basic unbelief in an inerrant Bible is turning your mind into mush.

    On the contrary, the true Bible says “looking for that blessed hope, and glorious APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. (The Greek texts actually read this way)

    Here we are looking for THE APPEARING of the great God Himself.

    The King James Bible is right, as always, and you just can’t stand it.

  23. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will, here is more humiliation for you. This is taken from your own article:

    “This is the important part here – της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου = the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” (http://brandplucked.webs.com/jameswhitetitus213.htm)

    Let me highlight your ineptness and dishonesty for all to see:

    “της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου = THE GLORY of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    Now what was that about modern versions perverting the text by rendering tes doxes as “the glory”?

    You see why I say are an inept deceiver who cannot do exegesis consistently or honestly? Anyway, I have more for you.

  24. Sam Shamoun says:

    Will, since I just quoted your own words to prove that even a inept deceiver like you candidly admits that the rendering “THE GLORY of the Great God…”, there really isn’t anything left for me to say, except that you again having embarrassed yourself by trying to defend your idolatry with lies and deception which came back to implode in your face.

    Now be a man and post a link in your article to this forum so people can see my COMPLETE responses to your lies which expose why you are an inept deceiver who should retire in a cave somewhere.

  25. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam. Are you really this blind? I guess that’s a rhetorical question. Let me run it by one more time real slowly. Your fake versions say “looking for THE GLORY of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The true Bible says “looking for THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    His appearance is His Person. His glory is not necessarily His Person, but just His glory. Get it? Nah, I didn’t think you would.

  26. Sam Shamoun says:

    Boy, talk about a guy who is truly an embarrassment, Note what else you wrote Will:

    The crucial difference in meaning is this. When Christ appears again in glory, He is the God of everybody – every man, woman and child, believer or unbeliever – but He is OUR Saviour. He is the Saviour of only those who are true Christians, but He is the God and creator of all, and He will be the judge of those who have not believed on Him. Jesus Christ is BOTH the Great God AND OUR Saviour. We are looking for Him to appear as such, and this truth is fully brought out in the King James Bible and many others that have likewise translated it this way by following the literal Greek text. (http://brandplucked.webs.com/jameswhitetitus213.htm)

    Here is the relevant part in all caps for all to see your ineptness:

    “… When Christ APPEARS again IN GLORY…”

    Boy, that sure sounds like the way some of the modern versions render that particular Greek phrase, i.e., “and APPEARING OF THE GLORY of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”!

    OUCH AND OUCH!

    In light of all this, do I really need to say anything else?

    Keep up the great job of embarrassing yourself since I will be here to capitalize on it every time you do.

  27. Sam Shamoun says:

    If anyone doesnt it get it’s you since you keep sticking both your feet your mouth and are constantly embarrassing yourself. But hey, that is all an inept liar like yourself can do is to constantly humiliate himself.

    So I need to ask. Are you blind or stupid, or both, since you yourself basically admitted that the modern versions which render the Greek construction of Titus 2:13 as “and appearing of the glory…” are correct SINCE YOU YOURSELF RENDERED IT IN THE SAME WAY WHEN YOU WEREN’T THINKING TO CAREFULLY (which is quite often in your case)? Note once again what you wrote:

    “This is the important part here – της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου = THE GLORY of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    “The crucial difference in meaning is this. When Christ APPEARS again IN GLORY, He is the God of everybody…”

    OUCH, OUCH AND OUCH AGAIN!

    Anyway, unless you have something honest or intelligent to say I will let you get in the last word in order to save face since I know your pride is eating you up inside for getting humiliated so badly.

  28. willjkinney says:

    Uh…Sam. I said when Christ appears in glory. Get it? We will actually see Him, not just His glory. Oh, well. Some have ears to hear, and others obviously do not.

  29. Sam Shamoun says:

    Uh…Will. By saying he comes iN GLORY you admit that translating the verse as “and appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior Jesus Christ” is legit and valid. It is only someone as blind as you who has no ears to hear who could argue that this somehow denies that it is actually the great God who will appear in his glory. So much for your arguments.

  30. Pingback: The Deceptive Nature of the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses | Effectual Grace

  31. Pingback: Comparing the NWT with other Bible Versions, a post by Sam Shamoun | Badmanna's Blog

  32. nabeelgill says:

    Will, Are you a Jehovah witness?

  33. willjkinney says:

    Hi N. You ask if I am a Jehovah Witness. No, I am not. Not at all. I am a fundamental, King James Bible believing Monergist. I believe Jesus Christ is Jehovah God manifest in the flesh. The ironic thing about Sam Shamoun, is that he himself is an unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible in any language and he is now promoting the new Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, which are all based on the same Vatican supervised, ever changing Critical Greek Text which is the same one that the modern Catholic versions and the Jehovah Witness NWT all follow.

    Sam and his hero James White Out will NEVER actually show you a copy of this “infallible words of God Bible” they profess to believe in. And the ironic thing is that in his initial post where he was criticizing the JW version, his modern versions like the ESV and NIV and NET are translated in the exact same way as the JW version he was attacking.

    So, to answer your question, NO, I am not a Jehovah witness, nor a Mormon nor a Vatican Version promoter. I am a 5 point Calvinist, King James Bible believer, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God, who Himself is the Lord God Almighty (Jehovah).

    Undeniable Proof the ESV, NIV, NASB, Holman Standard, NET etc. are the new “Vatican Versions”

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/realcatholicbibles.htm

    Read it and see for yourself. I am not making this stuff up. And bible agnostics like Sam and Todd Friel and James White, Dan Wallace, R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur will never address these issues and they will NEVER come right out and tell you what the 100% true, complete, inspired and inerrant Bible is, simply because none of these men really believes such a thing exists.

    “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8

  34. madmanna says:

    titus 2 v 13 “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

    How can he be a JW when he is looking for the glorious appearing of his great God and Saviour Jesus Christ?

  35. willjkinney says:

    Very true. Jesus Christ is the great God and our Saviour. The KJB got it right in Titus 2:13 and James White is wrong, as usual.

    James White and Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”
    James White and his criticism of Titus 2:13 in the King James Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/jameswhitetitus213.htm

  36. madmanna says:

    “Read it and see for yourself. I am not making this stuff up. And bible agnostics like Sam and Todd Friel and James White, Dan Wallace, R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur will never address these issues and they will NEVER come right out and tell you what the 100% true, complete, inspired and inerrant Bible is, simply because none of these men really believes such a thing exists.”

    If they ever believed in the possibility of the existence of an inerrant Bible. I don’t think they ever did and I don’t think they ever will do. But will they admit it?

  37. willjkinney says:

    No, they will never admit that they really do not believe that such a thing as a complete, inspired and 100% true words of God Bible in ANY language exists. They just go through the motions, giving out a lot of self contradictory, “scholarly” double speak. Examples? Yes. Here John MacArthur’s own words when he tells bald faced lies about how he believes the Bible is the inerrant words of God. Listen to him speak out of both sides of his mouth. These are his own quotes. And this stuff is typical of all of these men.

    John MacArthur – Confused and Self-Contradictory Pastor with No Infallible Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/johnmacarthur.htm

    “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8

  38. Sam Shamoun says:

    Nabeel, Will is a repulsive inconsistent troll and idolater who candidly admitted that he doesn’t believe in any perfect Bible up until 1611. Being blind pagan bible worshiper, he doesn’t see how he assault the God he claims to love and worship by his inconsistent and ahistorical position, since the view of this repulsive pagan means that God miserably failed to give ANY ONE a perfect Bible from the time the originals vanished up until 1611. You see what a wicked blasphemer this pagan truly is? And you see why this slime is worse than Muslims and is a great weapon in their to assault the true God and the preservation of his Word.

    Now to see this pagan self destructs when confronted with facts, check out his utter humiliation and pwngage by James White, this heathen’s nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H1dWcTGnUQ

    OUCH!

  39. willjkinney says:

    Hi all. The only thing the Vatican Version promoting, unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible in any language at any time in history, Sam Shamoun, got right here is the fact that I do not believe there was a perfect and inerrant Bible before the King James Bible. But keep in mind that neither Sam Shamoun nor his hero, James White, believes there EVER was or IS NOW such a thing as an inerrant Bible. Just ask either of them to actually show you a copy of this infallible words of God Bible they apparently want you to think they believe in. They will NEVER do it.

    As for James White’s radio program, here is my response to it. Check out the links on Colossians 2:9 and his criticism of the word Godhood when referring to Christ that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells. See the depth of Mr. White Out’s “scholarship”.

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/jameswhitedivideline.htm

  40. Sam Shamoun says:

    Let me place what this heathen blasphemer just wrote, so you can see how he just assaulted the living God for failing to care enough for anybody till 1611 since he failed to provide them a perfect Bible:

    “The only thing the Vatican Version promoting, unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible in any language at any time in history, Sam Shamoun, got right here is the fact that I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE WAS A PERFECT AND INERRANT BIBLE BEFORE THE KING JAMES BIBLE.””

    Not only has this blasphemer denigrated God, he also shows that his real god is not the One revealed in the Bible, but the KJV itself which he blindly worships to his own shame and destruction. Like I said, go and listen to how he self-destructed when White nailed him by asking the right kind of questions to exposes these idolaters for who they truly are. OUCH!!!

    It is repulsive idolatrous slime like him that help the enemies of the Lord Jesus to assault and blaspheme the living God. This is why this wolf would make a terrific Muslim apologist.

  41. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam Shamoun. Sir, you are totally missing the point. YOU yourself do NOT believe that any Bible in any language IS NOW or EVER WAS the complete, inerrant, 100% true, preserved and infallible words of God. That is what you really believe; you and James White and others like him are just too dishonest to admit it.

    SHOW US A COPY of this infallible Bible you keep pretending to believe in, or have the decency to be honest about it and just admit that you really do not believe such a thing exists.

    You may not be interested, but others might. See my article “Was there a perfect Bible before the King James Bible?”

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbonlyblowup.htm

  42. willjkinney says:

    Sam, the dishonest bible agnostic and unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible, posts: “It is repulsive idolatrous slime like him that help the enemies of the Lord Jesus to assault and blaspheme the living God. This is why this wolf would make a terrific Muslim apologist.”

    Once again, Sam is just blind to the facts and how the Muslims are attacking the Bible. James Wite Out (his hero and Todd Friel’s as well) is now saying that Luke 23:34 – “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” – is NOT inspired Scripture; it doesn’t belong in the Bible and he would not preach on it.

    Guess who posted James White’s video teaching on this. A Muslim! They love this guy, and are using James White’s own material to try to convince Christians that we do not have an inerrant Bible. Of course, men like James White will SAY they believe the Bible IS the inerrant, inspired and infallible words of God, but when you ask them to show you a copy or tell us exactly which one it is so we too can get one for ourselves, they will NEVER, ever tell you. Why? Because they are lying through their teeth, and they don’t really believe such a thing exists. Just like Sam Shamoun.

    James White says Luke 23:34 is not inspired Scripture

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/jwonluke2334.htm

    Do you agree with your hero on this one, Sam? My bet is you will simply DODGE this question too, just like you and James Wite Out do when I ask you to show us a copy of this infallible words of God Bible you profess to (and lie about) believe in.

    “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8

    “But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.” 1 Cor. 14:38

  43. Sam Shamoun says:

    Once again, this blasphemous slime avoids the ramifications of his own blasphemous take on Bible preservation, so let me put this in all caps for him in order to come clean.

    KINNEY, SINCE YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD LEFT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT A PERFECT BIBLE FOR OVER 1500 YEARS, ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MEANS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE OR LOVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ENOUGH? AND ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT GOD LOVED THE ENGLISH SPEAKING MUCH MORE THAN HE DID ALL THE REST OF THE FOLKS WHO, UP UNTIL 1611, HAD NO PERFECT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGUAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, I.E. LATIN, SYRIAC, COPTIC, ARMENIAN ETC.? THEREFORE, YOUR GOD OR YOUR VIEW OF GOD MEANS THAT YOU HAVE A DEITY WHO DOESN’T LOVE ALL THE DIFFERENT NATIONS THAT HE MADE AS MUCH AS HE LOVES YOU WHITE ENGLISH SPEAKING FOLK.

    Your arrogance and blasphemy wreaks of just how repulsive you truly are. It is a sad shame that badmanna actually endorses such a wicked blasphemous slime like yourself.

  44. Sam Shamoun says:

    As you can see Nabeel, Will is worse than a Jehovah witness since he is a wolf who masquerades as a Trinitarian Christian in order to deceive and dupe people into swallowing his blasphemous assault against the true God.

  45. willjkinney says:

    Sam Shamoun posts on March 30, 2015.

    “Once again, this blasphemous slime avoids the ramifications of his own blasphemous take on Bible preservation, so let me put this in all caps for him in order to come clean.

    KINNEY, SINCE YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD LEFT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT A PERFECT BIBLE FOR OVER 1500 YEARS, ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MEANS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE OR LOVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ENOUGH? AND ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT GOD LOVED THE ENGLISH SPEAKING MUCH MORE THAN HE DID ALL THE REST OF THE FOLKS WHO, UP UNTIL 1611, HAD NO PERFECT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGUAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, I.E. LATIN, SYRIAC, COPTIC, ARMENIAN ETC.? THEREFORE, YOUR GOD OR YOUR VIEW OF GOD MEANS THAT YOU HAVE A DEITY WHO DOESN’T LOVE ALL THE DIFFERENT NATIONS THAT HE MADE AS MUCH AS HE LOVES YOU WHITE ENGLISH SPEAKING FOLK.

    Your arrogance and blasphemy wreaks of just how repulsive you truly are. It is a sad shame that badmanna actually endorses such a wicked blasphemous slime like yourself.”

    [End of Sam Shamoun’s comments}

    Hi Sam. Sir, as usual, you misunderstand and misrepresent just about everything I believe and you yourself are STILL being dishonest with us in that you will NEVER identify for us what this “complete, inspired and inerrant words of God Bible” you apparently want us to think you actually believe in is.

    The simple reason you will not SHOW US A COPY of this inerrant Bible in ANY language, is because you do not believe such a things exists now or ever did exist. But you are too proud, too blind and too dishonest to admit it.

    Having a perfect Bible and God’s love are not related at all. In fact, if we follow your own reasoning here – “If God didn’t give a perfect Bible in all the languages of the world, then God doesn’t love all these people.” falls flat on its face. Why? Because YOU don’t believe that ANY Bible (66 books in one volume) in any language IS or ever WAS the perfect and inerrant words of God.

    Then, by your own argument and twisted logic, God must not love ANYBODY!

    The gospel of salvation and the love of God towards His people is found in ANY Bible in any language out there. The inerrant Bible issue is not a salvation issue. God can and does reach His people with the gospel of the saving grace of Christ who died and rose again to “save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) using any bible out there, no matter how corrupt and imperfect it may be in many other ways.

    Your analogy is also wrong in that it is not Biblical. There was a time – a very long time of hundreds and even a couple thousands of years, when there was only ONE nation and one language that had the true words of God.

    “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.” Pslams 147:19-20.

    God is now redeeming His people out of “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), but there was a time (a very long time) when He dealt primarily with only one nation of people, and they alone had His words of truth.

    “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:6

    Today the gospel goes out to all nations, but not all nations have a perfect and inerrant Bible. God only promised that the gospel would be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations – See Matthew 24:14. But He never promised to give every nation or individual His complete and infallible words.

    But He DID promise to preserve them and to give us “the book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16), and that heaven and earth shall pass away, but not His words. (Matthew 24:35)

    English is the closest thing to a universal language and the modern missionary movement began with English and American missionaries carrying the King James Bible into the uttermost regions.

    There are lots of reasons why the King James Bible is God’s Standard of perfection and inerrancy. God has borne witness to this Book far more than any other bible in many ways. Here are a few of those reasons.

    God’s Historic Witness to the Absolute Truth of  The King James Holy Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/absolutestandard.htm

    So Sam, either show us a copy or give us a link to where we can see it, or tell us exactly which Bible out there among the Bible Babble Buffet versions IS this complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true words of God, or try a little honesty and just admit that you really do not believe such a thing exists.

    But you are not going to do either, are you Sam?

    “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8

  46. Sam Shamoun says:

    Since this slime again avoided answering my question, but chose instead to divert attention by raising a host of irrelevant issues to pretend that he is actually addressing the challenge at hand.

    “Once again, this blasphemous slime avoids the ramifications of his own blasphemous take on Bible preservation, so let me put this in all caps for him in order to come clean.

    KINNEY, SINCE YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD LEFT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT A PERFECT BIBLE FOR OVER 1500 YEARS, ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MEANS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE OR LOVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ENOUGH? AND ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT GOD LOVED THE ENGLISH SPEAKING MUCH MORE THAN HE DID ALL THE REST OF THE FOLKS WHO, UP UNTIL 1611, HAD NO PERFECT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGUAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, I.E. LATIN, SYRIAC, COPTIC, ARMENIAN ETC.? THEREFORE, YOUR GOD OR YOUR VIEW OF GOD MEANS THAT YOU HAVE A DEITY WHO DOESN’T LOVE ALL THE DIFFERENT NATIONS THAT HE MADE AS MUCH AS HE LOVES YOU WHITE ENGLISH SPEAKING FOLK.

    Your arrogance and blasphemy wreaks of just how repulsive you truly are. It is a sad shame that badmanna actually endorses such a wicked blasphemous slime like yourself.”

    Lord willing, I will address the rest of his canards and smoke and mirrors later tonight, since I am off to bible study for now.

  47. willjkinney says:

    Hi Sam. Sir, I DID address the points and questions you brought up. The fact that this went over your head and you missed it only confirms that your mental faculties are becoming more and more unhinged as you sink further into your basic unbelief in the inerrancy of ANY Bible and through a spirit of whoredoms are now following the likes of James Wite Out and his new Vatican Versions.

    And of course you are STILL dodging the central question about whether or not you believe that any bible in any language is the complete and inerrant words of God or not. I KNOW you do not really believe in the existence of an inerrant and 100% true Bible you can actually show us, but you are just too dishonest to admit it.

  48. Sam Shamoun says:

    Kinney, patience son since, Lord willing, I will get around to decimating your so called response to show how inconsistent, illogical and dishonest you truly are.

  49. willjkinney says:

    Sam, here once again is the basic question you (just like James White) keep dodging.

    Do you believe that any Bible in any language (including “the” Hebrew and “the” Greek) IS (present tense) the complete, inspired, inerrant, infallible and 100% true words of God? Yes or No?

    If Yes, can you show us a copy, or give us a link to where we can see it? Or can you tell us exactly which one it is so that we too can go out and get one for ourselves? Yes or No?

    If No, you do not believe that any Bible in any language is the complete, perfect, and 100% true words of God, are you honest enough to admit it? Yes or No?

    Answer the question, sir. Don’t keep dodging it like James White, R.C. Sproul, Dan Wallace, John MacArthur, Todd Friel, Doug Kutilek and all these other men who SAY they believe the Bible IS the infallible and inerrant and inspired words of God, but when you ask them to tell us which one it is, or where we can get a copy of it, they all refuse to tell us. Will you be the first kid on your block to actually answer the question?

    (I seriously doubt you will be honest enough to answer one way or the other. Most of you bible agnostics are just too proud and too used to lying to actually tell the truth about what you REALLY believe about this “the” Bible you all keep making reference to.)

    Stop Lying About It!

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/stoplying.htm

  50. Sam Shamoun says:

    Time for me to put holes in Kinney’s rant. He writes:

    BEGIN
    Hi Sam. Sir, as usual, you misunderstand and misrepresent just about everything I believe and you yourself are STILL being dishonest with us in that you will NEVER identify for us what this “complete, inspired and inerrant words of God Bible” you apparently want us to think you actually believe in is.

    The simple reason you will not SHOW US A COPY of this inerrant Bible in ANY language, is because you do not believe such a things exists now or ever did exist. But you are too proud, too blind and too dishonest to admit it.
    END

    Is this not the kettle calling the pot black! The fact is that you yourself have basically admitted THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE ANYONE WITH AN INERRANT BIBLE UP UNTIL 1611! This means that you basically have turned God into a liar per your misinterpretation of Psalm 12:7 and your skewed view of preservation SINCE HE NEVER DID PROTECT ANY OF HIS WORDS FOR CENTURIES, AND ONLY DECIDED TO DO SO IN 1611! But I can see why you don’t see how your position blasphemously assaults God since you are an arrogant liar and deceiver, whose inconsistent is simply repulsive and expose your true character.

    Now let’s see how well you do in trying to turn my logic against me.

    BEGIN
    Having a perfect Bible and God’s love are not related at all. In fact, if we follow your own reasoning here – “If God didn’t give a perfect Bible in all the languages of the world, then God doesn’t love all these people.” falls flat on its face. Why? Because YOU don’t believe that ANY Bible (66 books in one volume) in any language IS or ever WAS the perfect and inerrant words of God.

    Then, by your own argument and twisted logic, God must not love ANYBODY!
    END

    This again shows why you have no business writing articles and doing talks defending the Christian faith since you are truly an embarrassment to Christianity in general, and Christian apologetics specifically. In the first place, you need to stop attacking straw man since your response here deliberate twists what I actually said. It therefore seems I need to post my reply in caps since you have shown a gross inability to comprehend logic and read what is right before your eyes.

    I AM NOT THE ONE ARGUING THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD PROVIDING AND PRESERVING AN INERRANT BIBLE FOR HIS PEOPLE ARE BIBLE AGNOSTICS, YOU ARE! THEREFORE, PER YOUR LOGIC THIS MEANS THAT GOD WOULD HAVE PROVIDED AN INERRANT BIBLE TO ALL THE MASSES OF PEOPLE THAT WERE GIVEN A BIBLE OR COPIES OF GOD’S WORD. AFTER ALL, NEITHER PSALM 12:7 NOR MATTHEW 24:35 STATE THAT GOD WOULD ONLY START PRESERVING HIS WORDS IN ENGLISH STARTING AT 1611. THE PASSAGES SAY THAT GOD’S WORDS WILL BE PRESERVED IRRESPECTIVE OF LANGUAGE. PERIOD, END OF STORY.

    HOWEVER, YOU HAVE CANDIDLY ADMITTED THAT THERE WAS NO PERFECT BIBLE UNTIL 1611, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU BASICALLY HAVE ADOPTED THE SAME POSITION OF THOSE BIBLE “AGNOSTICS” THAT YOU CONSTANTLY ASSAULT WHEN IT COMES TO EVERY OTHER BIBLE THAT WAS PRODUCED FROM THE TIME THE ORIGINALS VANISHED UNTIL 1611! IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR POSITION MEANS THAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE AN INERRANT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, WHETHER IN THE ORIGINAL HEBREW, ARAMAIC AND GREEK LANGUAGES THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN IN, OR THE OTHER LANGUAGES SUCH AS LATIN, COPTIC, SYRIAC ETC.

    THIS MEANS, PER YOUR OWN CRITERION, GOD FAILED TO PRESERVE HIS PERFECT WORDS PER YOUR EISEGESIS OF PSALM 12:7 FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS OR MORE!

    NOW WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT US SUPPOSED BIBLE AGNOSTICS! 😉

    Let me next dissipate your smokescreen

    BEGIN
    The gospel of salvation and the love of God towards His people is found in ANY Bible in any language out there. The inerrant Bible issue is not a salvation issue. God can and does reach His people with the gospel of the saving grace of Christ who died and rose again to “save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) using any bible out there, no matter how corrupt and imperfect it may be in many other ways.
    END

    Here is my response in all CAPS.

    IT IS IRRELEVANT TO YOUR CLAIMS AND POSITION THAT THE MESSAGE OF SALVATION AND GOD’S LOVE TOWARDS HIS PEOPLE CAN BE FOUND IN ANY BIBLE. SO STOP WITH THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS ARGUMENTS. WHAT IS RELEVANT IS THE FACT THAT PER YOUR LOGIC GOD DIDN’T LOVE ANY OF HIS PEOPLE ENOUGH TO GUARANTEE THEM AN PERFECT, INERRANT BIBLE THAT HE PROVIDENTIALLY HAD HIS WORDS TRANSLATED INTO, UNTIL 1611!

    THEREFORE, PER YOUR BLASPHEMOUS LOGIC THIS MEANS THAT GOD DIDN’T LOVE ALL HIS ELECT PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T SPEAK ENGLISH AND WEREN’T AROUND IN 1611 AS MUCH AS HE LOVED HIS ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT, AND NOT ALL THE ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT MIND YOU. ONLY THOSE ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT THAT WERE BORN AFTER THE 1611 KJV CAME OUT! AND YET HERE I THOUGHT THAT GOD LOVED ALL THE ELECT EQUALLY, IN FACT JUST AS MUCH AS HE LOVED JESUS HIS BELOVED SON (cf. John 17:23).

    Now let me also refute your red herrings and additional strawmen.

    BEGIN
    Your analogy is also wrong in that it is not Biblical. There was a time – a very long time of hundreds and even a couple thousands of years, when there was only ONE nation and one language that had the true words of God.

    “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.” Pslams 147:19-20.

    God is now redeeming His people out of “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), but there was a time (a very long time) when He dealt primarily with only one nation of people, and they alone had His words of truth.

    “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:6
    END

    You really, really need to stop with the straw man. And you also need to take a step back and think before you write fluff like this. Once again, here is my response in all caps:

    FIRST, I DIDN’T SAY THAT GOD MUST PROVIDE A TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN ALL THE LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT HE LOVES ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY, OR AT LEAST LOVES ALL HIS ELECT EQUALLY. WHAT I SAID WAS THIS: PER YOUR LOGIC AND INTERPRETATION OF TEXTS SUCH AS PSALM 12:7 AND MATTHEW 24:35, GOD WOULD MAKE SURE TO PROVIDE A PERFECT, INERRANT BIBLE IN ALL THE LANGUAGES THAT HE PROVIDENTIALLY HAD HIS WORDS TRANSLATED AND PRESERVED IN, BE IT LATIN, COPTIC, SYRIAC, ARMENIAN ETC. THEREFORE, BY ADMITTING THAT GOD FAILED TO DO SO FOR ANY OF THE LANGUAGES THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TRANSLATED IN UNTIL HE DID IT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 1611 FOR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, YOU HAVE BASICALLY ASSAULTED THE CHARACTER AND FAITHFULNESS OF GOD.

    SECONDLY, UNLESS YOU WANT TO ALSO ARGUE THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL WITH A PERFECT COPY OR COPIES OF HIS OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS, THEN YOUR APPEAL HERE ONLY ENDS UP BACKFIRING AGAINST YOU. THEREFORE, COULD BE SO KIND AS TO TELL ME WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT AT THE TIME OF JEREMIAH AND DANIEL, THE ISRAELITES HAD PERFECT COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES WHICH MEN SUCH AS MOSES, JOSHUA, DAVID WROTE DOWN BY INSPIRATION? IF SO THEN THIS ONLY CONFIRMS THAT YOU ARE A BLASPHEMER AND IDOLATER SINCE YOUR POSITION MEANS THAT GOD DROPPED THE BALL AT SOME POINT IN TIME SINCE HE STOPPED PROVIDING HIS PEOPLE WITH INERRANT FREE COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL, AND ONLY STARTED TO DO SO ONCE AGAIN IN 1611!

    This next one really takes the cake.

    BEGIN
    Today the gospel goes out to all nations, but not all nations have a perfect and inerrant Bible. God only promised that the gospel would be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations – See Matthew 24:14. But He never promised to give every nation or individual His complete and infallible words.

    But He DID promise to preserve them and to give us “the book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16), and that heaven and earth shall pass away, but not His words. (Matthew 24:35)

    English is the closest thing to a universal language and the modern missionary movement began with English and American missionaries carrying the King James Bible into the uttermost regions.
    END

    TO SHOW HOW DESPERATE AND DISHONEST YOU ARE, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE ANY OF THESE TEXTS SAY THAT GOD’S WORDS WILL ONLY BE PRESERVED IN AN ENGLISH BOOK OR VERSION OF THE BIBLE, OR WHERE IT SAYS THAT GOD WILL ONLY START TO PROVIDE US WITH A PERFECT BIBLE WHEN A LANGUAGE ARISES THAT MOST OF THE WORLD ENDS UP SPEAKING. IN FACT, CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE JESUS SAID HE WOULD ONLY PRESERVE HIS WORDS IN ONE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY ONE PARTICULAR GROUP?

    NOW PER YOUR LOGIC, SINCE GREEK BECAME THE CLOSEST THING TO AN INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE, THIS THEREFORE PROVES THAT GOD MUST HAVE PROVIDED HIS PEOPLE PERFECT, INERRANT COPIES OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, COPIES WHICH GOD MUST HAVE PRESERVED FOR US TILL THIS DAY. THEREFORE, CAN YOU BE SO KIND AS TO POINT TO THE GREEK PAPYRUS OR CODEX WHERE WE CAN FIND THIS INERRANT, PERFECT COPY THAT GOD SURELY PRESERVED AS A TESTIMONY TO HIS FAITHFULNESS PER YOUR MISINTERPRETATION OF PSALM 12:7 AND SKEWED VIEW OF BIBLE PRESERVATION?

    I WON’T BE HOLDING MY BREATH.

    BEGIN
    There are lots of reasons why the King James Bible is God’s Standard of perfection and inerrancy. God has borne witness to this Book far more than any other bible in many ways. Here are a few of those reasons.

    God’s Historic Witness to the Absolute Truth of The King James Holy Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/absolutestandard.htm
    END

    YAWN!

    http://www.kjv-only.com/

    Let me conclude with your own words, slightly modified.

    So Slimey Kinney, either show us a copy or give us a link to where we can see a perfect, inerrant Bible that God preserved throughout the centuries long before your KJV idol was produced, or tell us exactly which Bible out there among the Bible Babble Buffet versions that God had written down in all the various languages LONG BEFORE THE KJV CAME INTO EXISTENCE is this complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true words of God, or try a little honesty and just admit that you really that God proved to be an inconsistent failure for failing to preserve his perfect words as he said he would in Psalm 12:7 (again, per your eisegesis of the text) for all those centuries after the originals vanished, and only decided to honor his promise in 1611 by producing a perfect translation of the Bible for the first time ever.

    All I can say to you is, OUCH!

    Now that I have decimated your strawmen, red herrings, lies and deceptions, it is time for me to return to more important issues. I am going to follow the advice of Proverbs 26:4 and ignore you from now on.

  51. Sam Shamoun says:

    Time for me to put holes in Kinney’s rant. He writes:

    BEGIN
    Hi Sam. Sir, as usual, you misunderstand and misrepresent just about everything I believe and you yourself are STILL being dishonest with us in that you will NEVER identify for us what this “complete, inspired and inerrant words of God Bible” you apparently want us to think you actually believe in is.

    The simple reason you will not SHOW US A COPY of this inerrant Bible in ANY language, is because you do not believe such a things exists now or ever did exist. But you are too proud, too blind and too dishonest to admit it.
    END

    Is this not the kettle calling the pot black! The fact is that you yourself have basically admitted THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE ANYONE WITH AN INERRANT BIBLE UP UNTIL 1611! This means that you basically have turned God into a liar per your misinterpretation of Psalm 12:7 and your skewed view of preservation SINCE HE NEVER DID PROTECT ANY OF HIS WORDS FOR CENTURIES, AND ONLY DECIDED TO DO SO IN 1611! But I can see why you don’t see how your position blasphemously assaults God since you are an arrogant liar and deceiver, whose inconsistency is simply repulsive and expose your true character.

    Now let’s see how well you do in trying to turn my logic against me.

    BEGIN
    Having a perfect Bible and God’s love are not related at all. In fact, if we follow your own reasoning here – “If God didn’t give a perfect Bible in all the languages of the world, then God doesn’t love all these people.” falls flat on its face. Why? Because YOU don’t believe that ANY Bible (66 books in one volume) in any language IS or ever WAS the perfect and inerrant words of God.

    Then, by your own argument and twisted logic, God must not love ANYBODY!
    END

    This again shows why you have no business writing articles and doing talks defending the Christian faith since you are truly an embarrassment to Christianity in general, and Christian apologetics specifically. In the first place, you need to stop attacking straw man since your response here deliberate twists what I actually said. It therefore seems I need to post my reply in caps since you have shown a gross inability to comprehend logic and read what is right before your eyes.

    I AM NOT THE ONE ARGUING THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD PROVIDING AND PRESERVING AN INERRANT BIBLE FOR HIS PEOPLE ARE BIBLE AGNOSTICS, YOU ARE! THEREFORE, PER YOUR LOGIC THIS MEANS THAT GOD WOULD HAVE PROVIDED AN INERRANT BIBLE TO ALL THE MASSES OF PEOPLE THAT WERE GIVEN A BIBLE OR COPIES OF GOD’S WORD. AFTER ALL, NEITHER PSALM 12:7 NOR MATTHEW 24:35 STATE THAT GOD WOULD ONLY START PRESERVING HIS WORDS IN ENGLISH STARTING AT 1611. THE PASSAGES SAY THAT GOD’S WORDS WILL BE PRESERVED IRRESPECTIVE OF LANGUAGE. PERIOD, END OF STORY.

    HOWEVER, YOU HAVE CANDIDLY ADMITTED THAT THERE WAS NO PERFECT BIBLE UNTIL 1611, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU BASICALLY HAVE ADOPTED THE SAME POSITION OF THOSE BIBLE “AGNOSTICS” THAT YOU CONSTANTLY ASSAULT WHEN IT COMES TO EVERY OTHER BIBLE THAT WAS PRODUCED FROM THE TIME THE ORIGINALS VANISHED UNTIL 1611! IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR POSITION MEANS THAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE AN INERRANT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, WHETHER IN THE ORIGINAL HEBREW, ARAMAIC AND GREEK LANGUAGES THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN IN, OR THE OTHER LANGUAGES SUCH AS LATIN, COPTIC, SYRIAC ETC.

    THIS MEANS, PER YOUR OWN CRITERION, GOD FAILED TO PRESERVE HIS PERFECT WORDS PER YOUR EISEGESIS OF PSALM 12:7 FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS OR MORE!

    NOW WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT US SUPPOSED BIBLE AGNOSTICS! 😉

    Let me next dissipate your smokescreen

    BEGIN
    The gospel of salvation and the love of God towards His people is found in ANY Bible in any language out there. The inerrant Bible issue is not a salvation issue. God can and does reach His people with the gospel of the saving grace of Christ who died and rose again to “save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) using any bible out there, no matter how corrupt and imperfect it may be in many other ways.
    END

    Here is my response in all CAPS.

    IT IS IRRELEVANT TO YOUR CLAIMS AND POSITION TO ARGUE THAT THE MESSAGE OF SALVATION AND GOD’S LOVE TOWARDS HIS PEOPLE CAN BE FOUND IN ANY BIBLE. SO STOP WITH THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS ARGUMENTS. WHAT IS RELEVANT IS THE FACT THAT PER YOUR LOGIC GOD DIDN’T LOVE ANY OF HIS PEOPLE ENOUGH TO GUARANTEE THEM A PERFECT, INERRANT BIBLE THAT HE PROVIDENTIALLY HAD HIS WORDS TRANSLATED INTO, UNTIL 1611!

    THEREFORE, PER YOUR BLASPHEMOUS LOGIC THIS MEANS THAT GOD DIDN’T LOVE ALL HIS ELECT PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T SPEAK ENGLISH AND WEREN’T AROUND IN 1611 AS MUCH AS HE LOVED HIS ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT, AND NOT ALL THE ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT MIND YOU. ONLY THOSE ENGLISH SPEAKING ELECT THAT WERE BORN AFTER THE 1611 KJV CAME OUT! AND YET HERE I THOUGHT THAT GOD LOVED ALL THE ELECT EQUALLY, IN FACT JUST AS MUCH AS HE LOVED JESUS HIS BELOVED SON (cf. John 17:23).

    Now let me also refute your red herrings and additional strawmen.

    BEGIN
    Your analogy is also wrong in that it is not Biblical. There was a time – a very long time of hundreds and even a couple thousands of years, when there was only ONE nation and one language that had the true words of God.

    “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.” Pslams 147:19-20.

    God is now redeeming His people out of “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), but there was a time (a very long time) when He dealt primarily with only one nation of people, and they alone had His words of truth.

    “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:6
    END

    You really, really need to stop with the straw man. And you also need to take a step back and think before you write fluff like this. Once again, here is my response in all caps:

    FIRST, I DIDN’T SAY THAT GOD MUST PROVIDE A TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN ALL THE LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT HE LOVES ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY, OR AT LEAST LOVES ALL HIS ELECT EQUALLY. WHAT I SAID WAS THIS: PER YOUR LOGIC AND INTERPRETATION OF TEXTS SUCH AS PSALM 12:7 AND MATTHEW 24:35, GOD WOULD MAKE SURE TO PROVIDE A PERFECT, INERRANT BIBLE IN ALL THE LANGUAGES THAT HE PROVIDENTIALLY HAD HIS WORDS TRANSLATED AND PRESERVED IN, BE IT LATIN, COPTIC, SYRIAC, ARMENIAN ETC. THEREFORE, BY ADMITTING THAT GOD FAILED TO DO SO FOR ANY OF THE LANGUAGES THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TRANSLATED IN UNTIL HE DID IT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 1611 FOR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, YOU HAVE BASICALLY ASSAULTED THE CHARACTER AND FAITHFULNESS OF GOD.

    SECONDLY, UNLESS YOU WANT TO ALSO ARGUE THAT GOD FAILED TO PROVIDE HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL WITH A PERFECT COPY OR COPIES OF HIS OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS, THEN YOUR APPEAL HERE ONLY ENDS UP BACKFIRING AGAINST YOU. THEREFORE, COULD YOU BE SO KIND AS TO TELL ME WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT AT THE TIME OF JEREMIAH AND DANIEL, THE ISRAELITES HAD PERFECT COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES WHICH MEN SUCH AS MOSES, JOSHUA, DAVID WROTE DOWN BY INSPIRATION? IF SO THEN THIS ONLY CONFIRMS THAT YOU ARE A BLASPHEMER AND IDOLATER SINCE YOUR POSITION MEANS THAT GOD DROPPED THE BALL AT SOME POINT IN TIME SINCE HE STOPPED PROVIDING HIS PEOPLE WITH INERRANT FREE COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL, AND ONLY STARTED TO DO SO ONCE AGAIN IN 1611!

    This next one really takes the cake.

    BEGIN
    Today the gospel goes out to all nations, but not all nations have a perfect and inerrant Bible. God only promised that the gospel would be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations – See Matthew 24:14. But He never promised to give every nation or individual His complete and infallible words.

    But He DID promise to preserve them and to give us “the book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16), and that heaven and earth shall pass away, but not His words. (Matthew 24:35)

    English is the closest thing to a universal language and the modern missionary movement began with English and American missionaries carrying the King James Bible into the uttermost regions.
    END

    TO SHOW HOW DESPERATE AND DISHONEST YOU ARE, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE ANY OF THESE TEXTS SAY THAT GOD’S WORDS WILL ONLY BE PRESERVED IN AN ENGLISH BOOK OR VERSION OF THE BIBLE, OR WHERE IT SAYS THAT GOD WILL ONLY START TO PROVIDE US WITH A PERFECT BIBLE WHEN A LANGUAGE ARISES THAT MOST OF THE WORLD ENDS UP SPEAKING. IN FACT, CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE JESUS SAID HE WOULD ONLY PRESERVE HIS WORDS IN ONE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY ONE PARTICULAR GROUP?

    NOW PER YOUR LOGIC, SINCE GREEK BECAME THE CLOSEST THING TO AN INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE, THIS THEREFORE PROVES THAT GOD MUST HAVE PROVIDED HIS PEOPLE PERFECT, INERRANT COPIES OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, COPIES WHICH GOD MUST HAVE PRESERVED FOR US TILL THIS DAY. THEREFORE, CAN YOU BE SO KIND AS TO POINT TO THE GREEK PAPYRUS OR CODEX WHERE WE CAN FIND THIS INERRANT, PERFECT COPY THAT GOD SURELY PRESERVED AS A TESTIMONY TO HIS FAITHFULNESS PER YOUR MISINTERPRETATION OF PSALM 12:7 AND SKEWED VIEW OF BIBLE PRESERVATION?

    I WON’T BE HOLDING MY BREATH.

    Let me conclude with your own words, slightly modified.

    So Slimey Kinney, either show us a copy or give us a link to where we can see a perfect, inerrant Bible that God preserved throughout the centuries long before your KJV idol was produced, or tell us exactly which Bible out there among the Bible Babble Buffet versions that God had written down in all the various languages LONG BEFORE THE KJV CAME INTO EXISTENCE is this complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true words of God, or try a little honesty and just admit that you actually believe that God proved to be an inconsistent failure for failing to preserve his perfect words as he said he would in Psalm 12:7 (again, per your eisegesis of the text) for all those centuries after the originals vanished, and only decided to honor his promise in 1611 by producing a perfect translation of the Bible for the first time ever.

    All I can say to you is, OUCH!

    Now that I have decimated your strawmen, red herrings, lies and deceptions, it is time for me ti return to more important issues. I am going to follow the advice of Proverbs 26:4 and ignore you from now on.

  52. Sam Shamoun says:

    Kinney wrote:

    BEGIN
    There are lots of reasons why the King James Bible is God’s Standard of perfection and inerrancy. God has borne witness to this Book far more than any other bible in many ways. Here are a few of those reasons.

    God’s Historic Witness to the Absolute Truth of The King James Holy Bible

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/absolutestandard.htm
    END

    YAWN!

    http://www.kjv-only.com/

  53. willjkinney says:

    Sam, you still did not answer the question. You are still dodging it. I have told you that I do not believe there was a perfect and inerrant Bible before the King James Bible. I gave you lots of reasons why I believe this way. But you probably did not even bother to read my article. Here it is again.

    Was there a perfect Bible before the King James Bible?

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbonlyblowup.htm

    Now, you keep telling us that it is blasphemous that I would say there was no perfect Bible before the KJB, and yet you continue to refuse to tell us what this perfect Bible was or what it is now.

    Show us a copy of this perfect Bible you apparently want us to think you actually believe in. Why is this so hard for you to do? Well, the answer is simple. It’s because you do NOT believe there ever was or is now such a thing as a perfect, complete, inerrant and 100% true words of God Bible in ANY language. And, as I said before and continue to affirm, you are just too proud, too blind and too dishonest to admit it.

    I suppose you can’t even see how silly you look by spewing out all your venom at me and claiming that I am wrong, and yet you yourself refuse to tell us exactly what this perfect and inerrant Bible is that you keep wanting us to think you actually believe in.

  54. willjkinney says:

    Psalms 12:6-7 – Answering Doug Kutilek’s article “Why Psalm 12:6-7 is not a Promise of the Infallible Preservation of Scripture”

    Doug Kutilek, like many today, professes to believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Scriptures, and yet does not have a copy of them to show anybody. He may not know (and he most certainly doesn’t) where God’s preserved words are, but the one thing he continually tells us is that they are not found in the King James Holy Bible.

    Here is my response to those who bring up the issue of God’s promise to preserve His words.

    http://brandplucked.webs.com/dougkutilekpsalm12.htm

  55. Shamoun,

    Your blog is nonsense and a perversion, you clearly omit to mention other Trinitarian translations and I have shown this, by your omitting what other Trinitarian bibles say on Zech 12:10 and I have sent a full response to you on Youtube…to expose you on the others texts, is a complete waste of time…your are devious and clever and you pander to the ignorant masses!

    All you do, is the same as “Bowman, Rhodes, Fazier…” and what others do, you are no better or different!

    …and of course, I fully expect you to delete this and block anything else on Youtube, that exposes you!

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