Are all Messianic Jews without exception Trinitarians like us? A warning from Sam Shamoun.

On his facebook page Sam Shamoun challenges Rabbi Shapira to clarify if he believes in the Trinity as we Christians do:

“Rabbi Shapira refuses to answer my question regarding the Trinity. Here is what he just wrote in response: “The Return of the Kosher Pig SAM, I am not going answer anything that you write. You claim to be a christian yet you write slander. First learn the way of Musar and then we can talk. Your behavior is shameful. R’ Shapira”: https://www.facebook.com/ReturnOfTheKosherPig/posts/566867873399842?comment_id=3882551&reply_comment_id=3882595&total_comments=1. This prompted the following response from myself: “What is shameful is your cowardice for avoiding answering my question. Yet in not answering my question you actually have answered since you have now shown you truly are a heretic who denies the blessed and glorious Trinity. That is all I needed to read. Sorry to be so blunt but you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing and people need to be warned about you.” So be forewarned, he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing who denies the blessed and glorious Trinity.”

So we are grateful to Sam Shamoun for pointing this out. I think there are a number of Christians out there who rejoice that there are some Jews that worship Jesus. They are called Messianic Jews because they believe that Jesus is the Messiah. If they truly worship Jesus I rejoice to see them as our brothers in the faith. I am sure the apostle Paul would rejoice with us. The question is what is their concept of Jesus? Is it a trinitarian concept? Or is it a unitarian concept of Jesus? In this case they, the modalists, do not worship him as the Son of God but as the Father who has manifested himself in the form of a human being who is called Jesus. According to them the Father has just changed the mode of his appearance or manifestation. He could choose, according to this heresy, between manifesting himself as an angel or as a human being or perhaps in some other way. So when Jesus was speaking, he was not speaking as the only begotten Son of God. It was the Father that was speaking, according to the modalists. Now of course, I as a trinitarian Christian ( I don’t believe there can be any other type of Christian) do not believe this. The clear statements of Jesus in the New Testament disprove this.

The names for this heresy are, if I am not mistaken, Modalism and Sabellianism. Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I would be interested to know if this is typical of Messianic Jews or not. It would explain why some of them seem very reluctant to fellowship with Christians and worship God together with them. They obviously view Christians as pagans because they worship three persons as God. Whereas as modalists themselves they do not do this and so preserve themselves from idolatry and do not mix with idolators, as they see us.

In the light of Rabbi Shapira’s reluctance to clarify his position it is interesting to consider the Muslim demand for Jesus to say “I am God, worship me”.

If Jesus had said this would it not leave the way open to interpret his words in a modalist way? A modalist would understand that all statements of this type in the Bible are uttered by one and the same person and thus conclude that God is only one person. Jesus could have been understood to have excluded the other two persons from being members of the Trinity if he had said “I am God, worship me”. This statement could be falsely understood to mean “I (only) am God, worship me”. Whereas the full truth would be for Jesus to have said something like “I am God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.”

And this is exactly what he does but not in these exact words. But would Muslims believe if Jesus had said something like this? No of course not because their prophet forbade them. And they follow him.

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38 Responses to Are all Messianic Jews without exception Trinitarians like us? A warning from Sam Shamoun.

  1. Sam Shamoun says:

    Excellent post. And the technical terms would be modalism, specifically dynamic modalism, and Sabellianism. I would change one thing though. Not all Messianic Jews are modalists, but many are diehard Trinitarians and some, unfortunately, are humanitarian unitarians, meaning that Jesus was nothing more than a man. So perhaps you want to change the title of your post to reflect this fact.

  2. Christopher Cunningham says:

    Most Messianics are Trinitarian in their doctrine. However there are a small group that hold to a Unitarian view of Christ and do not believe him to be God. Some even more radical ones reject Paul as an Apostle and his writings similar to the Ebionites.

  3. Steve says:

    First off, watch Shapira’s video in full. Shapira was addressing a claim that he was pushing a trinitarian agenda, the video was to show that God’s unity is compound and He can choose to manifest Himself as He choose throughout the Hebrew Bible and that the idea of 3 different personas is a misunderstanding of it. I addressed this to Sam Shamoun but he never addressed the issue, but instead he blocked me and called me a heretic and a child of Satan.

  4. Sam Shamoun says:

    Steve the heretic is at it again trying to defend a fellow heretic. Therefore, let me expose this anti-Trinitarian here for all to see. In the first place, contrary to Steve’s pathetic defense of Shapira’s video, Shapira makes it clear that Christians who argued that God is three Personas, namely God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ARE WRONG since they have misunderstood what the Bible teaches. Second, when I confronted Shapira on his facebook page to answer directly he chose to tap dance around the issue, much like Steve has been doing here. Here is the exact exchange between us:

    Sam Shamoun So basically you are saying that you do not believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit eternally exist as three distinct Persons? To put this another way so you can answer directly. Do you believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit existed together as 3 different Persons who spoke with one another and loved one another before creation existed? Please answer directly.
    Like · Reply · 27 · December 18 at 5:01pm · Edited

    The Return of the Kosher Pig SAM, I am not going answer anything that you write. You claim to be a christian yet you write slander. First learn the way of Musar and then we can talk. Your behavior is shameful. R’ Shapira
    Like · December 19 at 8:38am

    Sam Shamoun What is shameful is your cowardice for avoiding answering my question. Yet in not answering my question you actually have answered since you have now shown you truly are a heretic who denies the blessed and glorious Trinity. That is all I needed to read. Sorry to be so blunt but you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing and people need to be warned about you.
    Like · 4 · December 19 at 8:55am · Edited

    And in spite of other people begging him to answer my question directly the rabbi chose to ignore everyone in order to avoid having to face the charge of being a heretic like Steve, his partner in crime.

    Moreover, even the rabbi that Shapira was responding to came to the same conclusion that I did, namely, that Shapira IS NOT A TRINITARIAN. Here it is:

    “Shapira is not a Trinitarian
    Posted on December 17, 2013 by yourphariseefriend
    Shapira is not a Trinitarian

    ( – but he is still an Idolater)

    “Itzhak Shapira published a response to my critique of his interview with Dr. Brown that took place in August of 2013…

    “Shapira’s video only addresses one word of my critique. That word is “trinity.” I had assumed that Shapira is a Trinitarian Christian.

    If you take out the word “trinity” from my critique and you put in the words “worshiper of Yeshua,” every one of my arguments will still stand. It is obvious that Shapira has no response to my arguments so he needs to nitpick on irrelevant words in order to appear as one who is presenting a defense.

    Why did I assume that Shapira is a Trinitarian?

    Simple; he claims to have been ordained by the IMACS which is a subsidiary of the MJAA. The statement of faith of the MJAA declares that the organization believes in the trinity. Furthermore; Shapira quotes extensively from Trinitarian books (such as “Can Three be One”) and from various Trinitarian Christians (such as Dr. Michael Brown). At no point does Shapira distance himself from the beliefs of those he quotes from.

    “Is Shapira a Trinitarian? It makes no difference. As long as he directs worship to a man and encourages others to do the same then he has taken a stance against the very heart of what Israel stands for as a nation before God.

    “P.S. I find it odd that Shapira demands a public debate with me as if he were interested in having his audience hear both sides of the argument. If he would truly be interested in having his audience hearing both sides of the story he would tell his audience where they could read my responses to his works. His failure to take this elementary step makes me wonder.
    In my next comment I will post the links to all of the above so that this heretic can verify these quotes for himself.”

    So badmanna, don’t let this heretic Steve’s appeal to pity fool you. He is another wolf in sheep’s clothing like Shapira.

  5. Sam Shamoun says:

    Badmanna,

    This is for that wolf Steve and for others like yourself so you can personally verify these citations.

    Here is the link where you can find my direct challenge to Shapira to answer whether he believes in the Trinity or not, with his response appearing right beneath my statements: https://www.facebook.com/ReturnOfTheKosherPig/posts/566867873399842?comment_id=3882551&offset=0&total_comments=23

    And here is the link to the rabbi’s post that Shapira is not a Trinitarian: http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/shapira-is-not-a-trinitarian/

    So much for this heretic’s appeal to pity.

  6. Sam Shamoun says:

    Here are two comments from another Messianic heretic who is posting on Shapira’s page as one of his followers. Note the modalism in his words: Anidjart
    1 day ago

    Khaled, when Yeshua appeared to the talmidim during Shavuot/Pentecost it says that He breathed upon them the Holy Spirit. The Spirit came from inside Him, it did not just appear with Him or came down with Him. The Son came from inside the Father, there was a separation just as the Spirit came out of Yeshua’s breath/inside of Him. That part of Yeshua stayed with us until the end of the times. Each one has a mission to accomplish. The mission of Yeshua as His name says L-rd Saves was to save mankind from eternal separation from G-d. The mission of the Holy Spirit is guide us, teaches, convince mankind of its sins, and to make us ready for the coming of Moshiach. In heaven there is only One throne in the throne room, not 2 or 3 where G-d sits. G-d can separate Himself because He is Spirit, He is light. I hope this clarifies how Jews that believe in Yeshua believe. G-d is Ehad.

    And:

    Anidjart
    1 day ago

    A man is a father, a son, a brother, a cousin, etc. These are just titles. Please see what I wrote about this above.

    So there you have it in black and white. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Person just like a man can be a father, son, brother, cousin etc. and still be one person. And this heretic Steve has the audacity to try to defend this blasphemous garbage.

    I will provide a link to where these comments can be found in my next post.

  7. Sam Shamoun says:

    Here are the links to the comments from that messianic heretic named Anidjart:

  8. So sad that Shapira subscribes to this Modalist nonsense. He even refused to answer my email and question on Facebook.

    I have even come under fire for my concerns about Shapira, but hey this happens. One person rebuked me for supposedly attack someone’s misunderstanding and another said I didn’t understand Modalism. It was nice to have a refresher because that only proves that Shapira is teaching something he shouldn’t.

    Shapiras even warned people about my blog, go figure. Unless Shapira repents of his heresy, my articles about him stay up.

  9. By refresher I mean having a refresher on what Modalism teaches, because it proves how deadly Shapira actually is.

  10. Here is the quote from Shapira:
    “The Zohar explains that God is truly a compound unity, ok, and to argue that this is not is arguing against Judaism. That is why when a man approached Yeshua and asked him what is the greatest commandment, Yeshua replied in Mark 12:29 Shema Yisrael Adonai Eleheinu Adonai Echad. Christianity on the other hand misunderstood it’s compound unity and understood that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all three different personas, well that is not true either. That is not the point in my book and that’s not what I believe. I believe that God is a compound God, he is ONE and he is absolute, without beginning and end, but at the same time he can manifest himself in anyway he chooses for”

    Sounds like Modalism to me.

  11. “the idea of 3 different personas is a misunderstanding” Yes, it is a misunderstanding of the Trinity. The Trinity is the one being of God eternally shared by three co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial persons, not personas.

  12. Sam Shamoun says:

    QUESTION FOR STEVE

    Since Steve is all too quick to defend Shapira, despite his blatant denial of the Trinity, I am going to challenge this heretic to answer the question that his guru/rabbi refused to answer. I will even place this in caps in order for him to get it.

    DO YOU, STEVE, BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT HAVE ETERNALLY EXISTED IN PERFECT LOVE, FELLOWSHIP AND COMMUNION WITH ONE ANOTHER? IN OTHER WORDS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT EXISTED TOGETHER BEFORE THE ENTIRE CREATION CAME INTO BEING? TO PUT THIS ANOTHER WAY LEST YOU AVOID ANSWERING THE QUESTION DIRECTLY, DID THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND ENJOY PERFECT FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER EVEN BEFORE CREATION WAS MADE?

    Now badmanna, watch how this heretic tap dances around these questions much like his heretical guru did.

  13. madmanna says:

    It’s quite clear if one watches this clip that he is a modalist. He bases the plurality not in the different persons but in the different manifestations. He clearly denies that there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead. He says flat out that this is a misunderstanding of Christianity. Case closed if you ask me.

    Steve, where are you?

  14. Sam Shamoun says:

    Hey bro, Paul Williams is back and has launched a new site.

    I just posted this on Ken’s blog. I have added a few quotes just in case you want to publish this as an article:

    Not only is Williams back but he is back doing what he does best, namely, perverting the Scriptures and misrepresenting the Christian position to his own shame and humiliation. Case in point: http://bloggingtheology.org/2013/12/23/and-theyre-the-same-dude/

    He is also back posting articles which only prove that Allah is a false god and Muhammad a false prophet. Check out, for instance, his post on the triumph of Paul: http://bloggingtheology.org/2013/12/24/the-triumph-of-paulism/

    Again, because he is ignorant of Islamic teaching, he just proved that his deity is either impotent or a liar, and here is why. According to Q. 3:55 and 61:14, Allah swore to Jesus that his true believers would be triumphant over the disbelievers from the time of Jesus’ ascension UNTIL the day of resurrection, a promise that he supposedly fulfilled. However, if Williams’ stance on Paul is true then this means that Jesus’ followers were actually defeated and their message was soon replaced by Paul’s, whose teaching continues to spread and triumph all over the world till this very day. Therefore, this either makes Paul more powerful than Allah or proves that Allah is a deceptive, capricious deity who cannot be trusted to do anything he says. Way to go Williams for once again helping us prove that your religion is false and that your god is a deceiver!

    More importantly, this dilemma obviously wasn’t lost on the earlier generations of Muslims who, on the basis of Q. 3:55 and 61:14, concluded that Paul must have been a true messenger sent forth by God to spread Jesus’ message in fulfillment of God’s promise to Christ that his followers would be triumphant. For instance, here is what renowned Muslim expositor al-Qurtubi wrote in reference to Q. 61:14:

    It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa… Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin) meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, “An object appeared on the wall” meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat. (http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=14&Page=552; capital emphasis ours)

    Al-Qurtubi isn’t the only one to cite this tradition since it is also found in Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s sirah:

    “Yazid b. Abu Habib al-Misri told me that he found a document in which was a memorandum (T. the names) of those the apostle sent to the countries and kings of the Arabs and non-Arabs and what he said to his companions when he sent them. I sent it to Muhammad b. Shihab al-Zuhri (T. with a trusty countryman of his) and he recognized it. It contained the statement that the apostle went out to his companions and said: ‘God has sent me (Muhammad) to all men, so take a message from me, God have mercy on you. Do not hang back from me as the disciples hung back from Jesus son of Mary. They asked how they hung back and he said, ‘He called them to a task similar to that which I have called you. Those who had to go a short journey were pleased and accepted. Those who had a long journey before them were displeased and refused to go, and Jesus complained of them to God. (T. From that very night) every one of them was able to speak the language of the people to whom he was sent.’ (T. Jesus said, ‘This is a thing that God has determined that you should do, so go.’

    “Those whom Jesus son of Mary sent, both disciples and those who came after them, in the land were: Peter the disciple AND PAUL WITH HIM, (PAUL BELONGED TO THE FOLLOWERS AND WAS NOT A DISCIPLE) to Rome. Andrew and Matthew to the land of the cannibals; Thomas to the land of Babel, which is in the land of the east; Philip to Carthage and Africa; John to Ephesus the city of the young men of the cave; James to Jerusalem which is Aelia the city of the sanctuary; Bartholomew to Arabia which is the land of Hijaz; Simon to the land of Berbers; Judah who was not one of the disciples was put in place of Judas” (The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth impression 1995], p. 653; capital emphasis ours)

    It is also cited by one of Islam’s greatest expositors and historians al-Tabari:

    “Among the apostles, and the followers who came after them were the Apostle Peter AND PAUL who was a follower and not an apostle; they went to Rome. Andrew and Matthew were sent to the country whose people are man-eaters, a land of blacks, we think; Thomas was sent to Babylonia in the east, Philip to Qayrawan (and) Carthage, that is, North Africa. John went to Ephesus, the city of the youths of the cave, and James to Jerusalem, that is, Aelia. Bartholomew was sent to Arabia, namely, the Hijaz; Simeon to the land of the Berbers in Africa. Judas was not then an apostle, so his place was taken by Ariobus. He filled in for Judas Iscariot after the latter had perpetrated his deed.” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Ancient Kingdoms, translated by Moshe Perlmann [State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany 1987], Volume IV, p. 123; capital emphasis ours)

    The translator explains what al-Tabari meant that Paul was not an apostle:

    317. In Islamic terms the messengers or apostles pave the new path. Their work is continued by the tabi’un, the followers, members of the next generations, who lead the Faithful. (Ibid)

    Thus, al-Tabari even lists Paul as one of those martyred for the true faith!

    Yet the view taken by these renowned Islamic authorities also puts Williams in a jam since Paul’s message proves that Muhammad was a false prophet. This blessed servant and apostle of the risen Jesus taught the deity of Christ, his vicarious death and physical, bodily resurrection and subsequent ascension into heaven where he sits enthroned as Lord over all creation, as well as his physical, bodily return to the earth to judge the living and the dead. Since Muhammad denied these core, essential truths, this means he stands condemned as a false apostle since he contradicts the message of an Apostle whom Allah gave victory to over against the disbelievers!

    The good thing about Williams’ return is that this now means I can finish off the series of rebuttals that I had started, but which I postpone, in order to continue with documenting that he is an inconsistent Christophobe who has no shame using arguments inconsistently in his tirade against the Holy Bible, even when those same arguments can be turned around against to prove that Muhammad was a false prophet (which he was).

    Merry Christmas!

  15. Sam Shamoun says:

    In the last paragraph, please change “but which I postpone” to “but which I postponed.” Thanks.

  16. Sam Shamoun says:

    Hey bro, here is what Steve just posted on my facebook page before I banned him:

    “Steven Tilley I’ve already studied this stuff and hold to a similar view, that God is compound in unity, has manifested Himself in different forms throughout the Tanakh to the Israelites, appeared to Moses and the Israelites in the form of a messenger, appeared to Joshua in ch. 5, and last of all appeared in the form of His Son, Yeshua the Messiah.”

    Notice this part: “has manifested Himself in different forms”. This is straight up modalism.

  17. Steve says:

    //Since Steve is all too quick to defend Shapira, despite his blatant denial of the Trinity, I am going to challenge this heretic to answer the question that his guru/rabbi refused to answer. I will even place this in caps in order for him to get it.//

    LOL!!!!! I don’t follow “gurus”, I’m just going by what the Tanakh says about God’s nature. Sam, you don’t even know Hebrew, so I’m not going to hold that against you. Labeling someone a heretic just because their position does not subscribe to ur understanding of God’s nature (and u blocking and in friending me, and putting my name for everyone to see) only shows u are full of pride and insecurity.

  18. Steve says:

    //DO YOU, STEVE, BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT HAVE ETERNALLY EXISTED IN PERFECT LOVE, FELLOWSHIP AND COMMUNION WITH ONE ANOTHER? IN OTHER WORDS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT EXISTED TOGETHER BEFORE THE ENTIRE CREATION CAME INTO BEING? TO PUT THIS ANOTHER WAY LEST YOU AVOID ANSWERING THE QUESTION DIRECTLY, DID THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND ENJOY PERFECT FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER EVEN BEFORE CREATION WAS MADE?//

    I believe Yeshua is God’s shekhinah in the flesh, His memra (Aramaic: Word) manifest to Israel and all nations. God manifest among us.

  19. Sam Shamoun says:

    HAHAHAHA!!!! Like a typical coward you refuse to answer the question directly, and choose to express your heresies in a vague manner. Not only does this show that you are coward, Steve, it shows that you are deceptive wolf who doesn’t have the courage to come right out and say what you believe.

    And since you have demonstrated that you are biblically illiterate, try brushing up on the following passages to see why I treat you the way I do: Acts 20:27-32; Romans 16:17-18; 2 Corinthians 11:2-4, 13-15; Galatians 1:6-9; 2 John 1:7-11. Yet, since sound doctrine doesn’t matter to a heretic like you, it doesn’t bother you that you fellowship with those who do not hold to your heretical view of God and Christ. For that you are simply a repulsive coward. Yet unlike you, we happen to be zealous for the truth and honor of our God, which is why we do not tolerate wolves such as yourself trying to creep in and devour the flock of God.

    Now since you claim I don’t know Hebrew why don’t you take me on via Paltalk in my room and see how much your Hebrew will save you from the shellacking that I promise to put on you for believing your damnable heresies? We will even have it recorded and posted on youtube for people to see how your knowledge of Hebrew will just totally put me to shame! ;-)

    Now is the time to put up or shut up.

  20. madmanna says:

    Steve said: “I believe Yeshua is God’s shekhinah in the flesh, His memra (Aramaic: Word) manifest to Israel and all nations. God manifest among us”

    Steve, a question for you :

    Is God the Father of Yeshua?

  21. Steve says:

    @madmanna
    Yes.

  22. Steve says:

    No where do i deny the Yeshua is God’s Son.

  23. Steve says:

    Sam, the Scriptures u pointed out have to do with a false gospel and luring the flock away with false teaching. It has nothing to do with my situation, im not going around spreading “modalism” from congregation to congregation. Read in context buddy. ;)

    As for “you are a coward” comment, i answered ur question, who blocked and banned whom on FB?

  24. madmanna says:

    @Steve,

    So God is the Father of his own manifestation?

    Are you making sense?

  25. Sam Shamoun says:

    Steve, thank you for proving to be that you are biblically illiterate. The Scriptures I pointed to affirm a basic principle, that being, ANYONE who comes along preaching a Jesus or a Gospel OTHER than the one proclaimed by the Apostles must be shunned and exposed since they are nothing other than workers of Satan. Moreover, Acts 20:27-32 is quite clear that there shall be wolves trying to devour the flock, and you classify as one since your Jesus IS NOT the Jesus proclaimed by Paul, nor is your Gospel the same as the one he proclaimed. And since you just admit that you are a modalist, this means that YOU DO PREACH YOUR HERESY TO OTHERS, unless of course you want to admit that you are in clear violation of Scripture which exhorts us to make disciples of people.

    In fact, per your eisegesis, this means we can never use such passages against Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult and heresy like yours since Paul didn’t have these heretics in mind when he penned these words under inspiration. You see just how stupid you come across as?

    More importantly, I didn’t simply quote texts which speak of people who try to spread their lies and damnable heresies. I also cited texts which tell true believers TO SHUN HERETICS SUCH AS YOURSELF AND EXPOSE THEM! Can you even read what is in front of you?

    So instead of exposing your biblical illiteracy why not put your money where your blasphemous and heretical mouth is AND PLEASE ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE TO COME TO PALTALK AND MESMERIZE ME WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HEBREW?

    Time to put up or shut up.

  26. Sam Shamoun says:

    Madmanna, your question illustrates how irrational the view of these modalist heretics happens to be. Yeshua is a manifestation of the Father, which means that he is not a distinct Person from the Father, and yet he is his Father’s Son. As you rightly pointed out, this makes Yahweh the Father of his own manifestation, which is a complete mockery and butchery of the Holy Scriptures. This is just one of the many reasons why these heretics need to be exposed and silenced.

  27. madmanna says:

    Which is your room on Paltalk Sam?

  28. Sam Shamoun says:

    Madmanna, my room is called “Trinity and the King James Bible,” where I use the AV to affirm the doctrine of the Trinity. It is in the Christianity section of Religion and Spirituality. My user name is Answering Islam. I try to do a talk once a week, if the risen Lord permits, normally on Sundays.

  29. Steve says:

    @badmanna

    Yeshua is the Father’s idea, word, shekhinah made known in the flesh.

  30. Steve says:

    Sam, you want to have a conversation and debate the issue, u can find me on FB or just simply remove the ban u put on me on ur page.

  31. Sam Shamoun says:

    Steve, I am not interested in Facebook. I am interested in you engaging me in a live discussion where it will be recorded and then posted on youtube for all to watch and listen. After all, I am the one who doesn’t know Hebrew so you have nothing to lose since here is your chance to put me in my place and prove that your position is biblical.

  32. Sam Shamoun says:

    Did you catch that badmanna? Yeshua is the Father’s IDEA, and therefore means he didn’t PERSONALLY exist with the Father before the creation. Like I said, this is damnable heresy and these heretics and wolves need to be exposed.

  33. madmanna says:

    I agree with you Sam. Attributes can’t inhere in ideas. If the Son is just an idea of the Father he does not share his divine essence. He has no subsistantia of his own.

  34. Sam Shamoun says:

    Any badmanna, I am through with Steven since his comments have only confirmed my point that he is a heretic. The only time I will engage him is in a live exchange via paltalk. Lord willing, I will have more articles for you to post in the upcoming weeks if you are interested. Until then, Lord bless.

  35. madmanna says:

    Anytime Sam. The Lord bless you and keep you and yours.

  36. Steve says:

    Sam, as usual u ignore and take what I said out of context. The word λόγος which is also used for word in John can also mean idea. I’m on FB, that’s where you’ll find me. I have better things to do than argue with an angry internet troll through video all day.

  37. Sam Shamoun says:

    Spoken like a true coward!

    Typical of these ravenous lying wolves, they accuse others of distorting and perverting things, all the while perverting Scriptures to their own shame and humiliation. Now let me expose this lying fraud. Here is what he wrote:

    “Yeshua IS THE FATHER’S IDEA, word, shekhinah made known in the flesh.”

    Now let us see if a took this repulsive troll out of context:

    “Did you catch that badmanna? Yeshua is the Father’s IDEA, and therefore means he didn’t PERSONALLY exist with the Father before the creation. Like I said, this is damnable heresy and these heretics and wolves need to be exposed.”

    Now badmanna, can you be so kind as to show me where I took this heretic out of context?

    Moreover, no one is disputing that logos CAN mean idea. The debate is WHAT DOES LOGOS MEAN IN THE CONTEXT OF JOHN 1!

    But this troll will never give us the opportunity to find out since he knows better than to engage me in a live debate over this issue since I will utterly humiliate him and expose him for the heretic he is.

    Anyway badmanna, contact me if this deceptive troll has anything worthwhile to say.

  38. Steve says:

    // But this troll will never give us the opportunity to find out since he knows better than to engage me in a live debate over this issue since I will utterly humiliate him and expose him for the heretic he is.//

    Right, im afraid to be humiliated by the big scary troll on the internet who is stuck in the dark ages.

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